Former NICU Mom and Author, Jennifer Bernardo

[00:00] Michelle: This week, I had the pleasure of speaking with NICU mom and author Jennifer Bernardo. Jennifer gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl, at just 26 weeks gestation.

[00:12] Her book, Week 26, is a firsthand account of their lives in the NICU and beyond.

[00:20] Jennifer's journey began with a distressing wake up call: she was hemorrhaging.

[00:25] Rushed to the hospital, she underwent an emergency C section where she delivered her son weighing just two pounds, followed by her even smaller daughter weighing one pound, 11 ounces.

[00:38] What followed was a four and a half month roller coaster ride in the NICU.

[00:44] Jennifer perfectly described the experience as being two steps forward and one step back.

[00:51] At times, our conversation was raw emotion.

[00:55] No parent wants to describe the first time they meet their child as traumatic, yet Jennifer bravely did so.

[01:03] But she also recounted joyful moments such as skin to skin holding and visits from their sibling.

[01:11] In her book, Jennifer emphasizes that the NICU journey is truly a family affair and includes reflections from her husband's and daughter's perspective.

[01:22] As Jennifer's story illustrates, attitude is everything.

[01:27] Week 26 is a story of heartbreak and hope and through her writing, Jennifer shows us that when your world turns dark, you must look for and be the light. In the five-minute snippet: Basketball, baseball, soccer, oh, my!

[02:04] Well, good evening, Jennifer. Welcome to the podcast.

[02:08] Jennifer: Good evening. Thanks for having me.

[02:10] Michelle: It's my pleasure. I was trying to remember when and how we met, and I couldn't recall, but I am so glad that we met because you have a beautiful story, one that really needs to be heard.

[02:25] There are so many parents and there are so many clinicians that really need to hear your story as well. So thank you so much for being here tonight.

[02:39] Jennifer: Thank you.

[02:40] I'm thrilled to be sharing my story and that's sort of what I've been advocating for these last couple months and just raising awareness of, you know, NICU babies and trying to help other NICU moms and dads and maybe friends of a NICU parent.

[02:59] So that's kind of what led me here today.

[03:02] Michelle: All right, well, let's just launch into it. Can you give us an introduction?

[03:07] Jennifer: Sure.

[03:08] So my name is Jennifer Bernardo. I am a former NICU mom of twins.

[03:15] I also have a daughter, she's currently 11 at the moment, but when I had my twins, she was 5, and I gave birth to them unexpectedly at just 26 weeks.

[03:31] I had slight placenta previa, which ended me in the hospital in the middle of the night.

[03:39] And a couple hours later, I delivered my twins.

[03:44] Michelle: Well, that had to be terrifying to say the least, right?

[03:48] Jennifer: Yes, that's right.

[03:51] Michelle: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, that was a lot. So let's just break it down. How was your pregnancy with your first child, your daughter?

[04:02] Jennifer: My daughter's pregnancy was pretty straightforward. Went full term with her, I believe, to 40 weeks, actually.

[04:11] You know, water breaks at home. Go to the hospital, push for a couple hours, and she arrived. So it was pretty, you know, we had a little issue with her with the umbilical cord, but it was nothing, you know, to be

[04:25] too worried about. That wasn't sort of fixed right away. And she came out, and she was beautiful, and she was 5 pounds, 11 ounces. And she's doing great.

[04:37] So it was a pretty, it was a natural birth

[04:41] And, yeah, it was great. The pregnancy itself as well, was an easy one, I could say. You know, those 40 weeks were pretty uneventful, I should say.

[04:55] So it was a great pregnancy.

[04:57] Michelle: Well, that's great. I'm glad that you got that experience. And it must have been pretty crazy to have gone through sort of a routine, normal pregnancy, very little problems, you know, very little problems with delivery and then delivering your twins, a boy and a girl, and much, much different.

[05:23] So when can you say that you knew there was a problem?

[05:29] Jennifer: Well, I'd have to, I'll be honest. I mean, as soon as I found out I was having twins, I sort of always had that motherly instinct, like something was going to happen.

[05:42] I didn't know what it was or when it was gonna happen, but I always had this anxious feeling in my gut about the pregnancy itself. And maybe it was because there were two.

[05:52] And I, you know, I'm a petite woman, and so that could have just been it. But I, you know, everything was sort of, you know, protocol as normal up until probably the 25th week.

[06:06] I would say the week before I ended up having to have an emergency C section is when they determined that I had a slight placenta previa. 

[06:18] Michelle: At that time, did you have some prior knowledge that having twins or multiple pregnancies can increase the risk of premature birth, things like that?

[06:29] Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was assigned to a special, like a risk doctor because of that. Because, you know, maybe it was also my age, I'm not sure.

[06:45] But because I was having twins. I did have high risk doctor that I would see regularly.

[06:51] So, yeah, there was always, and you read about it too, right? I mean, it's all over if you just look it up. It's, you know, you have twins, you have more of a risk of.

[06:59] delivering early. So. Yeah, I mean, that was always in the back of my mind as well. But you never think, you know, 26 weeks. You're thinking in the late 30s, you know, 31, 32, maybe 34, 35, but.

[07:13] But not in the, not in the 20s. That was never something that had ever crossed my mind.

[07:18] Michelle: Yeah, exactly what you said. You know, it's out there. It's pretty much everywhere that we know with multiple pregnancies that there can be some problems.

[07:29] Jennifer: Yeah.

[07:30] Michelle: And I would imagine that would, as a mom, that would kind of contribute to some of your anxiety about, okay, you know, I'm on alert here. I need to be aware of things.

[07:41] So now you're in the hospital, you've been admitted. Did you start going into preterm labor or did you start bleeding? What happened?

[07:49] Jennifer: So I started bleeding in the middle of the night.

[07:53] I was awoken because of it, and then sort of rushed to the bathroom, and that's when we rushed to the hospital. My high risk doctor I had seen actually the night before because I was experiencing some light spotting that week.

[08:07] So I was going in to kind of get checked out, and they had warned me, you know, they said, if you experience a huge rush of blood, you know, you need to go to the hospital immediately.

[08:18] And that's exactly what happened that following morning, early morning. So my husband took me to the hospital in the middle of the night again.

[08:28] Michelle: That had to be terrifying. I don't know how you, how you kept it all together.

[08:33] You're bleeding, you're on your way to the hospital. And you get to the hospital and did they immediately say, okay, we're gonna have to do a C section right now, or how did that progress?

[08:44] Jennifer: No. So they took me in, they stabilized me, and, you know, got lots of questions, trying to figure out what the problem was, why this had, you know, I had sort of been

[08:58] having a hemorrhage, and they just monitored me. They took me upstairs, got me settled in my own room. You know, the babies were being monitored, I was being monitored, but we were all okay.

[09:11] Once I was stabilized, their heartbeats were fine. Everything was stable at that moment. It wasn't until I actually hemorrhaged two more times that that last hemorrhage was what sent me to the operating room to have a C section.

[09:28] Michelle: Jennifer, during that time before you actually delivered, when you were in the monitoring period, did you ever meet with a neonatologist? Did anyone from the NICU come down and talk to you about the potential for delivering early and what that would mean for your twin?

[09:50] Jennifer: No, not right away.

[09:52] I don't think they thought that that was going to be the outcome so soon. It all happened very fast.

[10:00] So I went to the hospital in the middle of the night. It was, it was around 2 o'clock in the morning. I had them at 2 o'clock the following afternoon.

[10:09] So, you know, it all sort of happened very fast. Their plan was to keep me there, to monitor me for another seven to 10 days. But I don't think that they weren't expecting, or at least they didn't tell me or maybe want to get me worried that that was going to be the case, you know, that afternoon.

[10:29] Michelle: Yeah, and the reason why I asked that question is in as you know, I'm a former NICU nurse, and when we would admit a mom as like yourself that had a previa or that was bleeding or, you know, having premature contractions, our NICU team, our neonatologist and our charge nurse would come down and meet with the family and just, it was just a point of contact and it was like, we don't know what's going to happen, but, you know, we're kind of giving you, I don't know, maybe the worst case scenario, even though, you know, it wasn't explained that way.

[11:11] I'm not verbalizing it very well, but just to see what questions were there, what concerns were there, and to address those really quickly. And it sounds like in your case that things happened, like you said, extremely quickly.

[11:29] So talk to me now about what happened next in terms of delivery. So you've been monitored for a while and now you have another hemorrhage. What happened next?

[11:43] Jennifer: So I had a second hemorrhage a few hours later.

[11:47] Same deal. They stabilized me again.

[11:50] And then that's when they proceeded to tell me, okay, we're gonna monitor you, we're gonna keep you in the hospital for seven to ten days. Let's, let's sort of, you know, see what happens from here.

[12:00] And then shortly thereafter is when I hemorrhage a third time. And that one was really significant to the point where, you know, it was just complete chaos from that moment on.

[12:12] And I was being rushed down to the operating room to deliver the babies immediately.

[12:19] Michelle: Yeah. Wow. So scary, you know, coming from a standpoint of a NICU nurse and going to so many of those deliveries where it was a complete surprise and very chaotic and it's, it's really scary.

[12:35] You know, you, you see what the couple is going through. You see how terrified they are. And, you know, we try our best to give comfort and stay calm in those situations.

[12:49] it can be very scary and very chaotic. And I imagine on your end, that's, you know, exactly what you were going through.

[13:00] Jennifer: That's right. That's exactly right.

[13:01] Michelle: So, yeah. So the babies are out now. And your husband, did he go up to the NICU with the babies?

[13:11] Jennifer: Yeah, so he went and followed them. I went up to the NICU with them and I went to my recovery room, if you will, where he later met me there to kind of give me the status update of, of how they were and, and, you know, showed me some pictures which were unreal to look at at that moment in time, but I was still trying to get my bearings.

[13:37] I had lost a lot of blood, so it was very traumatic for me.

[13:41] And so it took me a little bit to kind of sort of realize what had just happened and, and, and come to. But yes, he went up to take the babies upstairs.

[13:53] Michelle: Yeah, we often would, well, I'd say pretty much a hundred percent of the time when there was a stat C section, we would see the fathers first. So we were the first point of contact with the fathers of the baby or the partner of the baby.

[14:13] And, you know, oftentimes so much responsibility was put on that person to, like you said, get pictures of the baby to get an update to find out what's happening.

[14:28] And things are happening so fast. You know, lines are being put in and, and airways are being secured, and so much is happening. And I just remember so many of those dads just having this complete deer in the headlight experience and being very, very concerned at the same time for their children and then for their wives.

[14:54] You know, my wife is down in the PACY and, you know, they're giving her blood. She hemorrhaged but she wants me to stay with the babies.

[15:03] So talk about some of the experiences from your husband's point of view. Has he talked about some of his experiences that he went through? Talk to that.

[15:14] Jennifer: You know, I'd have to say he was a trooper. He tried to keep things as positive as they could be, as much as they were not, you know, they were still alive and they were stable and they were doing everything that they could to keep it that way.

[15:32] And he would come downstairs into my room and he would show me pictures and just keep a positive attitude and just say, they're doing well, they're stable. The doctor said it's, you know, we'll take it hour by hour and let's get you healed first.

[15:49] As much as I know he was sort of crumbling inside, he took it upon himself to kind of keep everything together for me and for himself as well. So, I mean, he had his moments, as everyone should, but for the most part, until I was able to go up and see them, he was my only sort of touch point with them as to how they were doing and what the neonatologist was saying and the nurses were saying.

[16:20] But they kept a hopeful, positive attitude about the entire situation, which I think was very helpful for me to stay positive as well.

[16:32] Michelle: That positivity is so important. There's so many different ways that you can frame things that you can communicate, and I think all done in a positive vain is so important.

[16:47] And he sounds like an amazing person as many, many dads that I've been witnessed to just showed such incredible strength and compassion and concern.

[17:01] Often we saw dads break down around two or three weeks in where, you know, they had just been carrying this weight on their shoulders the whole time of being the communicator and being the protector and.

[17:22] And then it's like a couple weeks in, you know, when all the adrenaline is gone from that situation. Then we really saw dads just. Just say, man, I don't know how I handled all this.

[17:34] And I, you know, it really was scary.

[17:37] Jennifer: Yep.

[17:38] Michelle: So again, I think at that point, like, talking about things so, so important.

[17:44] Jennifer: Yeah. And I'm sure we'll talk about my book Week 26, but I made it a point to have his perspective in the book because I thought it was very important to, you know, it's his story too, you know, and as much as it's mine and my.

[18:03] My daughter who was at home, you know, with so many questions and very confused. You know, it

[18:12] Tells the story from my perspective, but it also tells the story from his perspective and what he was going through and what he was thinking and feeling. Because I feel like so many times the fathers sort of get pushed to the side and.

[18:25] And aren't heard, and it's just about the mom. The mom, you know, but it's important to note that, you know, we got through this together as a team, and I was fortunate to have that.

[18:38] And that's why I thought it was very important to have that perspective in there so that people could see why it is so crucial to the story and what part that they play in this getting through this journey.

[18:55] Michelle: Yeah, I'm so glad that you included that, because as you said, the dads, the partners are oftentimes kind of forgotten, and we put all of our focus on the mom.

[19:07] And, you know, in some cases, like, yeah, we need to do that, but the dads kind of take a backseat. And I talked about this with one of my guests, Adam Wood.

[19:20] He has Preemie Adventures, and he's amazing. And he spent five months in the NICU with his son, 25 weeks. One of the things he said was that he didn't want to be pushed to the side.

[19:35] He wanted to be there. He wanted to be present. And so he was always inserting himself into NICU routines and rounds and, you know, being there to feed his son and

[19:49] do cares for his son and all that, too. So.

[19:54] Jennifer: Yeah.

[19:54] Michelle: So I'm really glad that you put your husband's perspective in there. I think it's so, so important. And we are going to talk about your book Week 26, in just a bit.

[20:06] So, Jennifer, tell me about the first time that you got to see your children. Tell me what that was like.

[20:16] Jennifer: I mean, it was.

[20:18] It was hard.

[20:20] It was probably, I think it was about two and a half days before I could get myself in a wheelchair and actually go up there.

[20:28] Maybe a day and a half. It's a little fuzzy, but to actually get myself upstairs, you know, in a wheelchair and have the right mindset to see them. But it was all very surreal.

[20:41] You walk into this part of the hospital that's very quiet and dark, and, you know, because they were twins, they shared a room.

[20:51] So, you know, I had to brace myself before walking in there, but was pitch black, and all you could see was the neon lights from all the.

[21:01] machines and oxygen. You know, that was kind of bubbling in the background, and it was just a very traumatic, surreal moment. I didn't know where to go first, who to go, you know, talk to first.

[21:18] They were covered with a crocheted blanket. Their incubator was covered, so I sort of had to walk over and, you know, lift that up and take a peek. And, you know, at that moment, that's when I just lost it and I broke down.

[21:32] And I think it all just hit me at that moment because I had sort of just been. You know, this can't be real. This can't really be happening. You know,

[21:42] They're fine. They're okay. They're upstairs, they're being treated, and it's all gonna be okay. Until I actually went up there and, you know, saw it with my own eyes is when it really, really sunk in that it's gonna be a long, long road.

[22:00] And so, you know, and then I walked over to the other incubator, my daughter's, and lifted up her blanket. You know, it was the same. It was the same sort of scenario.

[22:10] And I talked to both of them.

[22:12] I sort of whispered some things to both of them.

[22:16] Jennifer: And then I had to just take a moment and just take a step back and sort of realize what had just transpired. And what does this all mean? Like, you know, there

[22:29] were so many questions that were going through my head. So many uncertainties, so many, you know, things that I had never even, it had never even dawned on me about, you know, a child in the NICU this young, so small.

[22:45] I mean, my son was 2 pounds. My daughter was 1 pound, 11 ounces.  And, you know, it just didn't. It didn't look real. And so I had to, 

[22:58] I broke down at that moment.

[23:00] And then after that, it was sort of, all right, we gotta push through this, and we've got to keep it together, and we've gotta take it day by day 

[23:10] And, you know, and stay hopeful, because that's all you can do. I mean, you're helpless. There's nothing you can do but stay positive and hope for the best.

[23:22] Michelle: Well, I really can appreciate your account of that. I found myself getting emotional, kind of reliving it through your words and seeing so many mothers seeing their babies for the first time.

[23:36] And you described it as traumatic, being somebody who was watching it.

[23:44] I could feel that. That's what it seemed like to me. I could see how traumatized the mother was and not wanting to be traumatized and not wanting to show that.

[23:59] It's like, these are my children. You know, I want to feel close to them, and I want to feel love for them, but I'm just like, I don't know what I'm seeing.

[24:10] There's all these different, you know, noises and lights and they're so small and I can see their ribs and just, you know, it's just reliving it through. What you're saying right now is just.

[24:28] It's so powerful. It's just raw emotion.

[24:33] Jennifer: Yeah.

[24:34] Michelle: And I find myself feeling so incredibly inspired. Like, how do these moms get through this? How do they keep going? How do they Jennifer?

[24:48] Jennifer: A lot of prayer and a lot of support.

[24:53] You know, I say traumatized. You want that to be a happy moment. You want it to be, you know, welcoming them into this world. But at the same time, it's like you're not supposed to be here.

[25:08] Like, you're supposed to still be in my stomach. And why did you, you know, you don't deserve this. Like, you're not supposed to be out in this world yet, you know, and you feel like you, you almost feel like it's your fault.

[25:21] Like, what did I do for this to happen?

[25:25] And, you know, after that, something got ahold of me and you had to stay positive. Like I've said before, I mean, you couldn't break down unless there was a reason to break down.

[25:44] And it was always two steps forward and one step back. The entire, you know, they were there for five, almost five months, and that was the rollercoaster the entire time.

[25:57] You know, the minute you think things are going well and you know they're trending in the right direction, it's like they take two steps back and it's daunting on the mind physically and emotionally.

[26:09] But, you know, I'd have to say it's all the support that I had from my husband. 

[26:16] My five year old that was at home that I had to stay. You know, I had to put on a happy face and I had to tell her that everything was going to be okay and that her brother and sister were going to come home soon.

[26:28] And, you know, you had to stay positive. I just had no choice.

[26:33] And that's how I got through it. I had an amazing mother who was very supportive and by my side the entire time.

[26:44] She came with me to the hospital on a, you know, sometimes daily basis to be by my side, to be by their side so that, you know, if I was holding one, she'd be holding the other so that one wasn't left out.

[26:56] But it was, it was you know, it's not easy. It's easier said than done. And I, you know, I can say thankfully, and I know that I'm very, very fortunate as to how our journey progressed.

[27:12] You know, there were complications, of course, but there was nothing that really, you know, there was no brain bleeds or there was no, nothing that inhibited them developmentally.

[27:26] So I thank my lucky stars now and I know that I'm fortunate for that. I was, I was two for two. You know, they, that you don't hear that very often.

[27:36] And they're amazing and, you know, they are thriving and they're inspiring and that's why I tell their story, because I believe they're miracles, for sure.

[27:46] Michelle: Yeah. Wow, that's just, that's amazing in and of itself. And man, what a gift. And you know, the support of people, friends, family is so, so important. And for many people, their faith is really important and helping, keeping them positive and keeping going.

[28:06] And one of my jobs in the NICU towards the end of my career was as a developmental nurse. And so I got to meet with the parents every single day and see the progression from when they came in to when they left over weeks and months.

[28:27] And it was just such a joy to, to see them, you know, come in and be completely terrified and not know any of the, you know, the NICU routines and the lingo and all that stuff.

[28:41] And then just through day to day living it, leaving, you know, going home, feeling confident that they can competently care for their infants. That was such a joy for me.

[28:53] And one of the things that came up that you talked about was moms really feeling guilty, like, did I do something to cause this? So we talked about that all the time, many, many times.

[29:07] And as you know, you can't just have somebody say, oh, don't feel guilty. You know, this wasn't your fault. You kind of have to go through a process of, of acceptance of that.

[29:21] Jennifer: Yep.

[29:22] Michelle: So thank you for speaking to that. Cause I think that's something that so many parents of babies in the NICU really suffer from. So thanks for touching on that.

[29:33] Jennifer: Yep, of course.

[29:33] Michelle: So I want to go into kind of like give us a day in the life of just being the NICU. You know, you were there for almost five months. So what was just a typical day of NICU care for your twins?

[29:49] Jennifer: So I mean, it really depends on what part of the five month journey we're talking about. But on a typical day, you know, after you got through the first couple of weeks that were super critical and then at that point, you're sort of just hoping to watch them grow.

[30:06] At that point, you know, I made it a point to be there during care times, you know, which was every three hours. So I would kind of clock it.

[30:17] So I would be there maybe in the morning and then, you know, in the afternoon.

[30:22] So I would, you know, come in. There was a lot of just sort of sitting in the green recliner, as I say, you know, pumping, just thinking, watching the clock, watching their monitors, watching the nurses come in and out and in, caring for them and taking down notes and, and then partaking in those care times, you know, helping with checking their temperature and changing their diaper and, you know, maybe giving them a bath if it was at that point in time.

[30:55] But I wanted to be as present as possible for myself and also for them. The kangaroo time was obviously huge.

[31:07] I didn't hold either of my babies for about two and a half weeks.

[31:14] And, you know, when I got the okay to hold them, I wanted to hold them all the time. So I would go in there and, you know, if they were having a good day, you know, I would, I would hold one for a period of time, and then I'd go over and I'd hold the other for a period of time.

[31:29] Or if I had somebody with me, we'd, you know, take turns.

[31:33] So I tried to, you know, be a part of their growth and their journey as much as possible.

[31:43] You know, it was that, I think that was important to me and it made, it helped me bond with them. I also tried to bond with all the nurses, as many as they had.

[31:52] There were so many rotations, but there were, you know, I would say a handful of nurses that's really stuck with me some that I still talk to today and that really, really, you could tell, you know, just had this compassion for the job that they were doing on a daily basis.

[32:10] I mean, it was just incredible to see them care for these little infants.

[32:17] So I developed relationships with some of them, which were great, and I really enjoyed that. The one nurse that actually took my son in at birth actually discharged him five months later.

[32:31] So that was yeah, that was a really cool moment, you know, to see that she was there through the whole process.

[32:40] So that was great. But yeah, just being there when you could, partaking in the care times when you could, trying to be there when you knew the neonatologist was going to come through was important because you kind got to actually talk to them and get their, their feedback on how the babies were doing.

[32:57] And it was hard because I had a five year old at home who was still in school. She still had activities. She still, you know, she didn't get to meet them for a couple months.

[33:09] Only towards the end of their stay was when she could meet them because it was flu season so they wouldn't allow children in the hospital.

[33:17] So I had to, you know, do things with her at home to sort of compensate for me being at the hospital.

[33:24] It was just a balancing act every single day. I mean, I went to the hospital every day for five months. I think I missed one day because of a bad snowstorm and I couldn't get there.

[33:35] But otherwise it was just a revolving door. But between my house and then when I went back to work and then the hospital and then back home and, and it just, it was just constant day in and day out.

[33:47] I mean, nothing else mattered at that moment.

[33:52] Michelle: Man, I have just loved hearing your recounting of your days in the hospital.

[33:59] And you know, I heard you on another podcast, Jennifer, and something that you said, you said just now, but you said, you know, I was available, I was there for their care times.

[34:12] And I remember listening to you on that other podcast and I was like, yes! Yes. And so, so important. It's like, you know, premature babies speak to us in a different way. Right. They have so many signals and we can't learn them unless we are present.

[34:35] Jennifer: Yep.

[34:36] Michelle: Unless we are there and we're there for the feedings and we're there for the touch times and we're doing skin to skin and, and you know, pumping at the bedside and you know, that's how you learn how your babies are communicating,  it's just crucial.

[34:56] Jennifer: Yep.

[34:56] Michelle: Yeah. So I'm so happy to hear you talking about that.

[35:02] So I mentioned pumping at the bedside and one of my other jobs in the NICU was as a lactation specialist, a certified lactation counselor. But talk about some of the challenges of first obtaining breast milk for your premature babies and then breastfeeding your babies.

[35:22] Jennifer: I mean, I'll be honest, I was not able to produce enough to sustain, to give to both of them full time.

[35:31] So that was a little bit unfortunate. I mean, I did the best that I could and I provided what I could, but I was also fortunate that the hospital that I was at was able to provide donor milk, which I think is amazing.

[35:45] And so whatever I couldn't provide, they were able to supplement with the donor milk until, you know, later on down the line when we introduced them to formula and that sort of thing.

[35:56] Cause I just knew that I wasn't going to be able to feed them full time at home, are breastfeeding full time at home. Um, so we introduced them to formula towards the end of their stay,

[36:09] Sort of a half and half type thing because the amount that I was producing just wasn't enough for the both of them. So that was, that was sort of, you know, how they got, how they got access to milk.

[36:21] Michelle: Yeah. That's amazing that you provided breast milk for so many months. And I'm sure it has contributed to how healthy they are today.

[36:33] And man, you get kudos. It is not easy, as you can attest to, especially with twins and just the whole environment and the whole situation, not easy. But I just took such pleasure and joy in seeing those moms every day.

[36:53] And, you know, bringing me in the beginning, just, that's just a few milliliters, you know. And yeah, like you had mentioned, you know, putting it on a Q tip and doing oral care with it.

[37:06] Jennifer: Yep.

[37:07] Michelle: And then progressing to, now you're bringing a couple ounces. And yeah, it's, it's really an amazing process. And our hospital too, we had donor milk, which is just a godsend.

[37:20] Jennifer: Yes.

[37:21] Michelle: And thank you to all those moms out there that provided donor milk for us and for our premature babies.

[37:28] And thank you for talking about that experience, the breastfeeding experience. It's something that is very unique to the NICU setting. And you know, as you said, it's not easy, but so crucial.

[37:45] And you know, we've had moms in the NICU that were never able to directly breastfeed their babies, but they provided milk for many weeks and months, and it just contributed to the children's overall health.

[38:02] So thank you for speaking to that.

[38:05] Jennifer: Sure.

[38:06] Michelle: So, Jen, being in the NICU for so long, you know, kind of day in and day out, was there something that you did for your mental health during that time? Talk about that.

[38:21] Jennifer: I mean, the hospital was really great about providing resources, support.

[38:29] You know, there's the NICU family support program, there's the March of Dimes, you've got a dedicated social worker. There were other resources that the hospital provided as far as, you know, making scrapbooks or taking a CPR class or, you know, hanging out in the mother's lounge and connecting with other, other moms and dads that are going through the same thing.

[38:52] But as, you know, as far as day to day, I would just say, I just stayed focused.

[39:00] I tried not to burrow in my own sorrows. You know, it wasn't about me, it was about them and keeping them, just focused on them. And my husband as well.

[39:18] I mean, we both had a mission, and our mission was to be at the hospital as much as we could, stay home and also be at home with our 5 year old as much as we could to keep her life as normal as possible and just get through the next couple of months until they get home.

[39:35] Because when they come home, that's a whole nother story when you, when you got twins at home, especially coming from the environment that they were coming from.

[39:43] But I just stayed focused on the task at hand, and that was to visit them every moment I could participate in their care times as much as I could. You know, if they had to undergo some sort of operation, you know, surgery or an exam or something that I could be there for, I would be there.

[40:06] I don't know if this is making any sense, but I just tried not to let my feelings get to me and what I was going through because I, my motherly instincts kicked in and my duty was to be there for them and to be there for my, my oldest daughter as well.

[40:26] And that was just what kept me from focused and kept me moving forward on a daily basis. I also obviously had the support from my mom, my father, my brother's family support, close friends that would call me every day.

[40:44] You know, there was a lot of that as well, and I'm fortunate to have all of that around me. But sometimes you don't even want to talk to anybody. You don't even want to, you don't even want to engage in any sort of social interaction because you, you almost feel guilty that you're taking time away from your home or time away from the hospital.

[41:04] We had a goal and we searched for that light at the end of the tunnel and we stayed focused and we just kept trucking forward every single day that we could and, and thanked God for, for every day that that passed by.

[41:18] Michelle: Yeah, your focus and determination, man, that's huge. And I thank you for talking about the sibling of the babies, you know, that's so important. And the family. One of the things I don't like about the NICU is that the family, the extended family doesn't get to meet the baby until they come home.

[41:42] And I just think that's really, really hard because they all matter.

[41:48] And I understand the reasons for it, but it just completely, completely sucks. And if I could change anything about that whole experience, I definitely would change that.

[42:02] Well, you talked about them coming home, so let's talk about the homecoming experience.

[42:07] How did you prepare for that, if at all?

[42:11] And what were the first few days at home like?

[42:15] Jennifer: Terrifying.

[42:18] I mean, they did not come home together, so my daughter came home first, it was scary because she had a lot of breathing episodes even towards the very last couple days before she came home.

[42:31] So we were scared. We were, you know, what if she stops breathing? What if, you know, we don't have the equipment to kind of bring her, you know, bring her back like they would do in the NICU.

[42:43] So that comforting support of the nurses and the doctors and sort of being in that setting is all gone. And so it's scary because 

[42:53] You're happy that they're home and you're grateful and, and they're here and they're healthy and they're thriving, but at the same time, you're terrified because you don't know.

[43:06] You're so used to having all the support system in the hospital that it's just sort of taken away from you and you're on your own. So it was scary.

[43:14] And then, you know, then my son came home a couple weeks later, and then we had the both of them there, and, you know, then you're in a situation where you.

[43:25] It's like you just, you know, you brought home twins, and now you've got to deal with it.

[43:30] And the constant, you know, crying and one waking up the other and them not going to sleep, and, you know, one throws up and the other one throws up, and, you know, it's that 

[43:42] You're where you were supposed to be, you know, when they were supposed to come home. So it was tough. I mean, twins in general are just, you know, 

[43:52] It's a whole different ball game versus having just one. So that in itself, aside from the NICU, is just a task

[44:01] at hand. That is very, very hard. And I bless every twin, triplet mother and father out there because it takes a lot of strength 

[44:14] through those first couple of years with, you know, I mean, we had three children, but just getting through all that is hard. It's very, very hard. Yeah, it's satisfying and it's

[44:26] It's gratifying and, you know, we loved it. But at the same time, it's. It's not easy. It's not easy. I'll be honest.

[44:34] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. It takes a village. It takes strength, but it takes a village. Like, you need. You need help of, you know, grandparents and friends. And Jennifer, how did your daughter react to the twins coming home?

[44:51] What was her experience?

[44:52] Jennifer: Oh, she was over the moon. I mean, she, you know, I surprised her with her sister when I picked her up from school. So she was in the backseat, I picked her up from school, and, you know, it's like, surprise, your sister's here and she's coming home with us.

[45:08] So that was really, really a very happy moment. And then when the two of them were home together, I mean, it was, you know, so many pictures and she was over the moon and she, you know, what can I get their diapers?

[45:22] Can I feed them? Can I help here? Can I help there? You know, very involved, she's just a very sweet little girl to begin with. And to see them finally together was just so gratifying.

[45:38] I mean, she had met them in the hospital as well a couple weeks prior, so it wasn't the first time she was seeing them. But, you know, to have them home and to finally be a complete family was just, you know, we were over the moon for sure.

[45:54] Michelle: Man, that must have just made your mama heart so happy.

[45:57] Jennifer: Yeah, for sure. Yes.

[45:59] Michelle: That's very cool.

[46:00] Jennifer: Yep.

[46:01] Michelle: Okay, well, I do want to talk about your book because it's amazing in that I think it's, I'm sure it's already helped so many people, and I think it's going to help so many more people.

[46:18] But, Jen, what do you want readers of your book Week 26 to experience after they read it?

[46:27] Jennifer: I want them to really understand what happens in the NICU, like what families go through while the babies are in the NICU, what the babies go through when they're in the NICU.

[46:42] And my story is only one of very, very, very many. Every baby is different. Every baby's journey is different. But I personally had a very inspiring one that had a happy ending of them coming home and being healthy and thriving, that I want that inspirational story to help somebody else.

[47:04] Because, you know, when I was in the hospital, and I say this all the time is I just wanted somebody to tell me it's gonna be okay. They're gonna come out of here and it's all gonna be okay.

[47:16] Like, you know, don't worry. I looked for positivity. Somebody who had been through this experience, you know, is this normal, you know, hearing it from somebody who wasn't a nurse or wasn't a, you know, a neonatologist or somebody from the hospital staff outside of that, who had been through a situation like that, I seeked those stories.

[47:36] I looked for that because it was comforting to me. And not every story is. Is as, you know, as much of a positive outcome as mine is, but there are positive stories out there, and I feel like if mine can help another mother or father who's going through this situation, then that's why I wrote the book.

[47:59] That's what my main goal is, to get it into the hands of the NICU families. The moms, the dads, the friends of the NICU parents who don't know what to say, don't know how to act, who have no idea what they're going through.

[48:14] This gives them a glimpse of what really goes down. I mean, I had close friends and family who reached out after reading the book and said, I had no idea you went through all of that.

[48:28] Why didn't you say something like, why didn't you tell me that?

[48:32] It just wasn't the story to tell at that time. And now that we are where we are today, I believe that my kids are an inspiration. I believe that the story should be told, and I believe that it can help others out there.

[48:47] And I think it's so important to tell, like I said, the perspective of the sibling at home and the father who's also going through his work and his job and whatever else he's experiencing.

[49:01] And then the mother, of course, and then you've got the babies  who are in the NICU.

[49:07] So I think that's what I want. You know, it's a story of hope. You know, hope, faith and perseverance is what I say. And if it can help somebody who's going through any challenging time, then I've done my job and that's what I strive for.

[49:26] Michelle: Yeah, I think that first person testimony is so incredibly powerful.

[49:33] And obviously you prove that to be true by even your friends and family saying, oh, my gosh, I had no idea that this was what you are going through. Like, it's raw, it's ugly at times.

[49:48] But your message of faith, hope, and perseverance, like you said, those can apply to anybody in life. Going through anything that's difficult.

[50:00] Jennifer: That's right.

[50:01] Michelle: And especially to parents and families that have gone through the NICU experience.

[50:07] And also, I want to say clinicians, doctors, nurses, social workers. One of the most powerful conferences that I ever went to in my career was a conference on prematurity.

[50:21] And I got to sit in on a parent panel. And it changed the way that I delivered care. It changed the way that I looked at parents, it changed my interactions with parents.

[50:36] And it was a panel of parents who's babies were born very prematurely. Some of them had bad experiences. Some of them had good experiences, like you, or outcomes, I should say.

[50:48] And they shared things that were helpful to them in their journey that were done or said by doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, social workers. And they also shared things that were hurtful.

[51:07] So are there any things that advice that you would give on, you know, if you are a nurse, if you are a doctor, if you are a respiratory therapist and you are in the NICU, these things really lift parents up, and these things

[51:27] Are not beneficial. Can you speak to that?

[51:30] Jennifer: Yeah, I think one of the things that sticks out when you talk about that is just how some of the nurses interact with you, meaning me and the babies. You know, there are some where they come in and they talk to you and they interact with you, and they ask you to get involved and do you want to hold them?

[51:55] You know, how are you doing?

[51:57] And talk about, you know, the baby as well. They're, you know, this is what they did today. Here are their milestones. You know, this is what they accomplished today. They passed this test.

[52:07] You know, I think it's just some nurses are not, maybe it's a personality thing, but I had some interactions with nurses where, you know, it was like I wasn't even there.

[52:21] I would be sitting in the chair and, you know, they would come in and they would do their thing, and then they would just leave. And if I didn't speak up, there was no conversation.

[52:32] I didn't know what she did. I didn't know how he's doing or how she's doing so I think that's very important is the interaction between the hospital staff and the parents who are sitting there sort of, you know, 

[52:49] They're in a very, very scary place mentally.

[52:54] And I think the more that you involve the parents in what's actually happening with their babies. It will help them mentally

[53:04] And get through that moment and get through that day, because they don't know what you're thinking. They don't know, you know, what just happened two hours ago.

[53:12] So some were great, some nurses were amazing. Like I said, I still talk to some, and we built a relationship, and others were just, you know, 

[53:23] Maybe there were some that I probably wouldn't even recognize because there was just no interaction, and it was just very, very dry and that was sad to see sometimes, especially when you, you know, you want to talk to them and you want to get their feedback, and they know probably more about your baby than you do, you know, and so that's the only communication you have about how their health is doing.

[53:49] And I know sometimes more information is not the best thing, but at least, you know, say, hi, how are you? How are you feeling today? How are you doing? You know, talk, just spark up a conversation.

[54:01] I think that's just really important is the interaction between. And not just the nurses. I think the neonatologist as well. And also, you know, the therapists that come in to work with the babies.

[54:13] You know, those are also all very important relationships to build with the parents of the baby.

[54:20] Michelle: Yeah. That's something that Adam Wood called emotional intelligence. You know, he loved any kind of healthcare professional that really knew how to read the room.

[54:32] Jennifer: Yeah.

[54:32] Michelle: And they could walk in the room, and they could tell if you were having a good day or a not so good day, and they would do exactly what you had wished for.

[54:44] Just that interaction, that communication, whether it's just starting a conversation by talking about the weather or whatever.

[54:53] You know, sometimes I would

[54:55] I never asked a parent or a mom, like, how are you doing? I think that is the first way to shut down any kind of communication, because nine times out of 10, 

[55:11] They would say, I'm fine.

[55:13] Jennifer: Right.

[55:14] Michelle: You know, just like that. Where I knew, like, okay, they're not fine.

[55:20] Jennifer: Yeah.

[55:20] Michelle: So I started asking, tell me what been happening in the last day or so, and just that comment. Sometimes they would just.

[55:34] Man, the tears would come and they would say, I am not having a good day. You know, she's been having a lot of bradys, and I'm worried. And so it was a way to open up the lines of communication.

[55:48] And so I think those things that.

[55:51] you know, healthcare professionals can learn are so beneficial, and they just can't be talked about enough. So thank you for sharing your experiences in that way.

[56:07] Jennifer: And I think also, you know, the parents need to play a part as well. I mean, I'll, I'll speak for myself where, you know, I didn't hold my son for two and a half weeks, but I probably could have held him sooner if I had spoken up or said something or mentioned it to them.

[56:24] But I left it to the nurses to tell me when I could hold them. And it wasn't until one nurse came to me and said, have you held him yet?

[56:32] And I said no. She says, oh my, you need to hold your baby like you should have held him by now, you know, So I missed out on that, partaking in that because I didn't speak up.

[56:45] And so I think it's also the parents responsibility to, to advocate for your babies and, and, and speak up and, and maybe, start a conversation because yeah, maybe they do say it's fine and then that's it and it closes the door.

[57:01] But so it could go both ways. But, but yeah, for sure. I mean, I think there are certain conversation triggers that would get him or a dad to, to really open up.

[57:14] Michelle: Yeah, I agree and I hate to see that it brings back memories. I remember I would meet with the parents like day one, day two of their experience and I would say ask about skin to skin. Every day, every time you visit, ask is it, is it time for skin to skin?

[57:37] And then I would talk to the nurses and I would say, okay, at the very possible moment where skin to skin is possible, I want you to be offering that even if the parents don't ask about it.

[57:51] So sounds like that's, you know, kind of a common thread that runs through the NICU and thank you so much for that advice to parents to, you know, that's part of advocating for your baby.

[58:03] But also I would also tell the healthcare professionals, the nurses and the doctors to also advocate for that baby and that family by offering those things that we know are so helpful as soon as we possibly can.

[58:18] Jennifer: Yeah. Yep.

[58:19] Michelle: Yeah. So important. Okay, well, how are your twins today, Jennifer?

[58:26] Jennifer: They're amazing. They just turned six and they each have their own personality. They're very different.

[58:36] Can't be with each other and can't be without each other.

[58:41] So you know, I think, cause it's a boy/girl, it makes the dynamic interesting. But they're doing great. I mean, they're in a ton of activities, playing sports and, you know, my son loves to play chess and do math, and he's very analytical, is super smart.

[58:59] My daughter is the queen bee of, you know, dance, singing, and, you know, being a little diva that she is. But. But they're doing amazing.

[59:09] And my daughter, my oldest daughter is 11 now, and she's just been the best big sister that they could ask for since the moment they came home. So she's also doing very well.

[59:22] Michelle: That's so cool. That's just so nice to hear. And it sounds like you have a great family.

[59:27] Jennifer: Yes.

[59:28] Michelle: Blessed. Yeah. Yes, very blessed. Well, Jennifer, is there someone that you recommend as a guest on this podcast?

[59:37] Jennifer: I think, and I don't know if you've talked to them already, but just some of the two women that I've spoken with recently.

[59:47] Jaylee Hilliard from Angel Eye. I don't know if you've spoken with her.

[59:51] Michelle: No.

[59:52] Jennifer: Angel Eye is a really great organization, and Jaylee was just telling me about some of the innovative technology that they're trying to come up with to have a better connection between a mother and, or, you know, a father, whatnot, the families and the babies while they're in the hospital, because sometimes they can't always be there every day like I was.

[01:00:16] You know, they have to work or they don't have transportation or whatever it may be. So they, I think are trying to come up with ways to make that connection easier 

[01:00:29] For families. So I think she would be an interesting conversation.

[01:00:33] And then the other one is a fellow NICU mom as well, also has a podcast. Her name's Ashley O'Neal.

[01:00:41] And I, you know, I did her podcast as well. And we've met in person. We've done some, you know, we've been at March of Dimes events together. And I think she's an amazing woman.

[01:00:51] Also, very inspirational. So she would be a great guest as well.

[01:00:55] Michelle: I agree. I don't know your first guest recommendation, but I, I followed Ashley for a while, her and Kolin, and seen their journey and, yeah, incredibly, incredibly amazing. And I heard you on her podcast, too, so great.

[01:01:09] Jennifer: Yep.

[01:01:10] Michelle: All right, well, thank you so much for those recommendations. Well, where can we find you, Jennifer, and how can we find your book?

[01:01:18] Jennifer: So I think the easiest route is my website, which is week26.com.

[01:01:23] It has all about the book about myself, you know, has my podcast tapings and any, you know, storytelling events that I've done and I'll continue to, to update that as, as things come about.

[01:01:37] I hope to continue to do things like this to kind of get, you know, the word out about my story and try to try to get it out there to the people who, who need it the most.

[01:01:48] But Week26.com and you know, the book is on any major retailer, Amazon, Bookshop, you know, Barnes and Noble, you know, you can find it anywhere online. You can also contact me directly if you'd like the book as well.

[01:02:03] But I do have an Instagram page, week26mom, as well as.

[01:02:10] What else? Instagram. I do have a Facebook page as well, week26Mom.

[01:02:15] Michelle: So sweet. Lots of ways to get in touch. Yes. And I'll put all those in the show notes for people that want to find you.

[01:02:23] Jennifer: Great.

[01:02:24] Michelle: And yeah, man. Jennifer, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and I've learned so much about you and your story and I find myself inspired by everything that you've gone through.

[01:02:38] And just also your push to get your story out there and your word out there. Because I think the more stories, the more books, the more podcasts that can talk about the NICU world, if you will, are just going to be so beneficial to all those that have gone before and the ones that are to come, if they're ever in that

[01:03:08] in that space. Thank you so much.

[01:03:11] Jennifer: Absolutely. I'd love to send you a copy of the book if you're interested in.

[01:03:15] Michelle: Oh my gosh, I would love it. Thank you.

[01:03:17] Jennifer: Yeah, I'll email you to get your contact information, but sweet.

[01:03:22] Michelle: Okay, great. Well, thank you so much. And we're at the end. We're at the last five minutes. So I think I had told you prior that, you know, the last five minutes are just a way for our audience to see the off-duty side of Jennifer when she's not an author and a NICU mom. So are you ready to play?

[01:03:44] Jennifer: Sure.

[01:03:47] Michelle: I love the tentative attitude. That's so great. It's fun, Jennifer. I promise.

[01:03:53] Jennifer: All right.

[01:04:33] Michelle: Convince me to live in Fairfax, Virginia.

[01:04:38] Jennifer: Great restaurants.

[01:04:40] Michelle: Oh.

[01:04:41] Jennifer: Great schools and a great community.

[01:04:45] Michelle: Sweet. You had me a great restaurant, so.

[01:04:47] Jennifer: Yeah.

[01:04:49] Michelle: That's awesome. Okay. Would you rather vacation in the Mojave Desert in August or on the frozen tundra of Siberia in January?

[01:05:02] Jennifer: Desert, for sure. I do not like the cold at all.

[01:05:06] Michelle: And you live in a cold environment.

[01:05:09] Jennifer: I know. And it gets me every time. I don't know why.

[01:05:12] Michelle: Oh, my gosh.

[01:05:13] Jennifer: That's when I question why I live here.

[01:05:16] Michelle: Why? Okay, we're in your home and there's a picture on the wall of your favorite travel destination. Where is it and who is in the picture?

[01:05:28] Jennifer: I would say the Mediterranean. And my family is in the picture. My family and extended family is in the picture.

[01:05:38] Michelle: It sounds amazing.

[01:05:40] Jennifer: Yes.

[01:05:41] Michelle: Okay, finish this sentence. Writing makes me feel_______

[01:05:48] Jennifer: Writing makes me feel.

[01:05:54] Michelle: These are hard.

[01:05:55] Jennifer: These are hard. Depends what I'm writing about, but I guess it makes me feel expressive. Makes me feel creative.

[01:06:09] Michelle: Absolutely.

[01:06:10] Jennifer: Yeah.

[01:06:11] Michelle: Writing is a creative endeavor.

[01:06:13] Jennifer: Absolutely.

[01:06:15] Michelle: Okay. A typical date night with hubby. What would that be like?

[01:06:18] Jennifer: A five star Michelin restaurant.

[01:06:24] Michelle: Oh, my goodness.

[01:06:25] Jennifer: Love good food. So anywhere that there's good food, we try to be there. So I would say that's our typical.

[01:06:33] If we're going out on a date night, we try to find the newest, best restaurant that we can.

[01:06:40] Michelle: That is a great date night, Jennifer. Have to agree there. Okay, finish the sentence. When I need to get out of my head, I_____

[01:06:47] Jennifer: I watch mindless tv.

[01:06:54] Michelle: Oh, my gosh.

[01:06:55] Jennifer: Mindless TV on Netflix. That is how I get away from it all.

[01:07:01] Michelle: I hate it. I hate it. But it's just such a reality. Right? I just. Yeah, I know. Mine is like QVC. I'll have it on in the background just to hear the rambling.

[01:07:16] And every so often I look like, okay, what's for sale right now? And yeah, and I'm just like, you should turn this off. And then I don't. I hate that.

[01:07:25] Jennifer: Right, right. I know, my husband, you know, makes fun of me every time, but it is what it is.

[01:07:32] Michelle: It is what it is.

[01:07:33] Jennifer: Yeah.

[01:07:34] Michelle: Okay, a couple more questions. Favorite game to play with the kids.

[01:07:41] Jennifer: Um. Oh, what is it called? What is it called? What does my daughter call it? So it's a game where you. It's an art. It's a drawing game.

[01:07:52] Michelle: Oh, is it Pictionary?

[01:07:54] Jennifer: No, it's not an actual board game. So it's a game that they came up with or, I don't know, maybe they saw it somewhere where you close your eyes and you pick the three marker challenge.

[01:08:06] That's what it's called.

[01:08:08] You pick, you close your eyes and you pick three colors out of a sea of markers. And with those three colors, you have to draw a picture and only use those colors to color the picture.

[01:08:23] And then we decide who has the best picture at the end of the day. So I think it's really interesting to see that the pictures that my kids come up with and it's just an all around fun game for all of us.

[01:08:37] I think as they get older, the pictures get better, but they really enjoy, you know, drawing and coloring, and that's something I like to do with them.

[01:08:46] Michelle: That's fantastic. I might steal that to play with my grandkids. It sounds like a lot of fun.

[01:08:52] Jennifer: Yep.

[01:08:52] Michelle: Okay, last question. Did you have a favorite childhood game?

[01:08:59] Jennifer: Did I have a favorite childhood game?

[01:09:02] Michelle: I don't know, like a board game or a card game or maybe it was Red rover. Red rover.

[01:09:11] Jennifer: At school, I really liked, as weird as this sounds, I liked hopscotch.

[01:09:19] Michelle: Doesn't sound weird. Yeah.

[01:09:21] Jennifer: And I just, I loved to play sports. Like, I loved to just kick the soccer ball around or play softball or throw the frisbee or play basketball. Like, I just was really into playing any type of sport that I could.

[01:09:37] So I think that was what you found me doing. I sometimes played football with my brothers. And, you know, any type of active sport, I would say, would be my ideal game.

[01:09:51] Michelle: Those are great games. Yes, absolutely. Well, Jen, you made it through the five minute snippet. You did it.

[01:09:58] Jennifer: Oh, thanks. Great.

[01:10:01] Michelle: You don't sound convinced. Oh, man, No.

[01:10:04] Jennifer: I don't like being put on the spot like that.

[01:10:06] Michelle: I know, I know. It's hard. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. You did great, though, and I really appreciate you indulging me. So thank you so much.

[01:10:14] Jennifer: Thank you.

[01:10:15] Michelle: And thank you for everything that you've brought today, Jennifer. I see such a light around you and just, I'm so glad that you're here in this space talking about what needs to be talked about.

[01:10:31] And I just appreciate you.

[01:10:33] Jennifer: Thank you so much. That means a lot. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me as well.

[01:10:38] Michelle: It's my pleasure. And have a great rest of your evening.

[01:10:42] Jennifer: Thank you. You too. Have a good night.