Tulare County Fire Chief, Charlie Norman

[00:00] Michelle: This week, I stepped way outside my comfort zone and spoke with Tulare County Fire Chief, Charlie Norman. 
I can confidently say that many nurses do not fully understand what firefighters do. We often see them in the ambulance bay, and we see them in our communities, but do we really take the time to SEE them? 
Do we know where the budget for fire services comes from? Do we understand how firefighters advance in their ranks? Sadly, do we realize that firefighter deaths by suicide exceed those who die in the line of duty? 
Well, Charlie addressed these important issues and more. He explained the long and challenging journey of bringing paramedicine to our county, his path to becoming fire chief, and his relationships with city and county officials because, as he said, everything in life comes down to relationships. 
As fire chief, Charlie prioritizes firefighter mental health, recruitment and retention, having a diverse fire crew, and serving the community. He embodies the core values of integrity, respect, loyalty, teamwork, and compassion. He says everything he learned in kindergarten he can apply to life: keep your hands to yourself, be nice to people, and if you don't have anything good to say, keep your mouth closed. 
And what does he look for in recruits? Character. Yes, they need to be able to pull a hose, bandage a patient, and competently administer medications. But if their character is lacking, they don't belong in the fire service. 
I'd say with Charlie in charge, everything will be okay. 
In the five-minute snippet, my granddaughter's question, answered by the expert. 

[02:16] Michelle: Well, good morning, Charlie. Welcome to the podcast.

[02:19] Charlie: Thank you for having me. Look forward to it.

[02:21] Michelle: Yeah, me too. So I'm totally out of my comfort zone, full disclosure, my podcast is geared towards nurses and other healthcare professionals, too. But I have been challenged by some of my prior guests and some of my listeners to talk to other disciplines outside of nursing. And I was immediately like, oh, really? But, you know, I'm up for a challenge, so that's why you're here. And also, I think a lot of nurses don't really know what the fire service is all about, what firefighters do. We see you coming in the ambulance bay to the emergency room. We see you in the community, but I don't think we really have a grasp on what you do. So we're just going to talk all about firefighting today. We're going to start by just giving us a brief introduction. Who is Charlie Norman?

[03:31] Charlie: I'm a local person who was born and raised and never left Tulare County. Most of my time was spent with the city of Isalia Fire Department. Had an opportunity later in life to go to work for the Tulare County Fire Department. And I've been there for about the last 10 years. My biggest successes are my three kids and my 37-year marriage to my wife, Madeline. And just firefighting gets you into the community. You're in a very highly regarded position, so you have the influence to really help people out on a daily basis, whether they're asking how to change batteries in their smoke detectors or if they're just wanting a sticker from one of the folks in the field. It's just, that it's 9 times out of 10, I'm enthused to go to work. And a lot of people I know can't say that.

[04:17] Michelle: That is for sure. And you are very blessed, I think. And, as a member of the community, I see you in the community, I see firefighters. I feel like you guys are guys and gals are really just pillars in the community. People look at you and I think they just have this feeling of safety and of somebody like, I got your back. So what inspired you to get into the fire service?

[04:57] Charlie: You know, I did have a brief history in law enforcement to get to fire service, but it gave me a great background for arson investigation. As a young child I grew up in Woodlake, and me and a few of my neighborhood buddies would always ride around the summertime, back when you didn't have to go home until dinner was ready and we'd ride around. And my first contact, I was probably about six or seven years old and, I love our brothers in blue and tan and green. And law enforcement works very well with us. But my first contact was with a police officer. He came up to me and rolled down his window about an inch in the summertime and says, hey, you guys getting into trouble? No, officer, we're fine. And so we keep pedaling on our summer mission. Stop by the fire station, the firefighter comes out and says, hey, you guys want to go squirt some water? Hey, you guys want to use a drinking fountain? Hey, you want to play with lights and siren? And right then I was thinking, okay, that's what I want to do. So it started at a young age.

[05:54] Michelle: Wow. Yeah. Okay, you've gone through firefighting. Is it an academy?

[06:00] Charlie: For entry level firefighters? These days you have to have Firefighter 1, EMT 1, which is usually a semester at CUS Porterville College, Fresno City College and then an emergency medical technician class semester then the national registry. A lot of departments locally, Tulare and Visalia are paramedic fire departments, engine-based paramedic fire departments. So that's a good basis. The majority of our folks coming in have two-year degrees. There are some people that can get hired right out with the minimum. We have so many varying degrees of education to get in through the door. It's whatever can market yourself to get a job. I worked as a seasonal for Cal Fire and that was a very good experience for me because we do so much urban interface firefighting in ______ county just based on need. But I wanted to take the paramedic, the EMS route just because I had more one-on-one contact with people, and at the time I didn't like sleeping in the dirt. It was much more, it was much more appealing to me to be with a metro-based fire department.

[07:04] Michelle: So now I read that you brought the paramedic program to Tulare County, is that right?

[07:12] Charlie: I wrote a grant when I was still a captain with the city of Visalia for a paramedic upgrade for the county, for the city of Visalia to start a fire-based emergency medical advanced life support program. At that time I was on the emergency medical care committee board and we were able to transition from an EMT two-level service to a paramedic-level service in the county. So there were a lot of chainsaws in the air all at once to try and get this system upgraded. But we were able with council support to get the paramedic program implemented in Visalia. And that was a long arduous process. And everything in life comes down to relationships. I had great relationships with CCMSA, local medical, and all the ambulance providers. So we were able to implement that program. It started back in '02 and I think we finally implemented the program and made the countywide change in the fall of '05. So a very long process. But with that, if you save one life or you get somebody to the hospital that's a viable patient, it's all worth it.

[08:15] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. And I really love what you said. Everything in life comes down to relationships and that is so true. And I feel like if more people adopted that philosophy, man, we would be so much better off.

[08:31] Charlie: Yes, we're going through a unique time with the upcoming election and it's. Everybody has their political leanings and party support and I get that. But there's not more of a nonpartisan department than the fire department.

[08:46] Michelle: Exactly.

[08:47] Charlie: People call 911, we help, we assist. And relationships are so important.

[08:54] Michelle: Yeah. Well, let's talk about your journey to being a fire chief. How did that, how long does that take? And what's the process of that?

[09:03] Charlie: Oh, that's funny. I was, I look at my career and, you know, starting in the '80s, it just happened. And I had very hardworking parents. Dad was a teacher, mom was a stay-at-home mom. That always instilled in me, you know, do a lot of something that you love, work hard, tell the truth, and, you know, have a passion for what you're doing and always make sure you're supporting the people that are supporting your mortgage or providing stability for your family. So I looked at that and, you know, I got into in the '80s and, you know, went through the first couple of ranks. Made engineer, which is the best position in the fire department because you get to drive fast and it's just so cool. Made captain. And then, I don't know, in my 30s, I decided to test for what we call chief officer, battalion chief position. Got that, and was able to implement the paramedic program. And then, I don't know. I had a lot of time in with Visalia. There was an opportunity that was local and a lot of times people moved their families around. I never wanted to move the family around. Just didn't have a desire to go outside of Tulare County. The opportunity came up with Tulare County as a division chief. I took that and another year and a half later I was promoted to fire chief. And I've been there as fire chief for about nine years. But the path was education, hard work, and just doing what's right for the community. There are a lot of people that I've competed with and 10 times smarter than I am that are just outstanding candidates and I respect a lot of them, but it's just timing's everything. And I've been involved with the Exeter City Council for a long period of time. I was involved with the school board, I was involved with the Exeter Ambulance District Board. So just getting out there and realizing that there's more that happens to life than what goes on in a fire station emergency response. There's this big community that you serve in such an ancillary form. And there are so many things that you can do outside of emergency response to make things better. And I think whether I was a firefighter, fire chief or mayor, it's just our job is public service and that's what we're there for. If somebody knocks on my door or they need a hand, whether it's moving Dave's trash can or responding to a 911 call, that's what you're there to do.

[11:25] Michelle: Yeah, and I see that because we're neighbors. I have a full view of your house, and I see you helping your neighbors. I see you bringing in trash cans, reparking cars, you know, helping lift heavy things, bringing in groceries. And I feel like if I didn't see your truck over there in the driveway that said fire chief and I just saw you doing those things, I would just say, that is a really good person, you know, that's somebody that I want to be my neighbor.

[11:58] Charlie: You're too kind.

[12:00] Michelle: And then you just happen to be, you know, the fire chief. And you don't get to be fire chief without demonstrating some leadership skills, right? And some core values. And so talk about the core values of integrity, respect, loyalty, teamwork, and compassion and how you demonstrate these qualities in your work as a fire chief.

[12:27] Charlie: Integrity, basically. I mean, those five terms right there define everything you do as both a firefighter, as a person, as a mom, a dad, just as a human being. When you have integrity is one of those things, I think it can be developed, but it's kind of one of those, you have it or you don't have it. It's from a young age I learned through my parents to put my shopping cart back where it belongs. Don't make the box boy come out and get even. When I was young, always push that back in. If you drop something, you know, you see somebody drop something, help them pick it up. That just comes to, I don't know, just normal human nature, respect. It's just you get respect by giving respect. And it's just loyalty is expected. Respect is earned. And I think that just by treating everything that I learned in kindergarten, I could probably apply to an average staff meeting in the fire service. And this is what you learn. Keep your hands yourself. Be nice to people. If you don't have anything nice to say, keep your lips closed.

[13:39] Michelle: Yeah, exactly. Right.

[13:42] Charlie: Yes. Criticize in private, praise in public.

[13:45] Michelle: Yeah.

[13:45] Charlie: There are just so many of those things that we do and intrinsically when we become firefighters or we look at that next generation of promotions, entry-level testing. I'm not looking to see if somebody can pull a hose, put on a bandage, or know the miliequivalents to an IV bolus. I'm looking to see what their character is and what have they done. And, you know, past behavior is a pretty good indicator of future behavior. So we want to make sure that they check all these boxes and there's not a one-size-fits-all this, the diversity in the great United States of America. But we want to make sure that somebody is there. If I call this person in the middle of the night because I have a flat tire, are they going to show up? Are they going to go back to sleep? That's what I'm looking for.

[14:33] Michelle: So, yeah. And there are so many parallels to nursing. I've spoken with so many nurse leaders now that when they are looking to hire nurses and other staff, all the other stuff is trainable, but you can't really change someone's character. So they want those core values in the character of the nurses of the other staff that they're hiring. The other things are, yes, of course, you want nurses to be skilled and so forth, but those kind of things come with training. But if you don't have that at the beginning, it's going to be a really tough road.

[15:16] Charlie: You are absolutely right. Not to overshare but I mean, I think of my contact with nursing staff and I think of the nurse we had when we had our oldest baby. I remember her to this day. I will see her at functions and give her a hug. Sadly, when my dad passed away many years ago, the ICU nurses that I had, there were some, and they all did their job very well. But there were two or three that I will never forget the impact they had on me. Just unbelievable, empathetic, compassionate people.

[15:50] Michelle: Yep. Okay, thank you for sharing and oversharing. That's totally fine. So what are some of the biggest challenges facing fire departments today and how do you work to address those challenges?

[16:05] Charlie: The biggest lately it's been recruitment retention. When I started in the 80s, you'd have 1500 people testing Seland Arena in Fresno for 25 jobs. In this day and age, you'll have 20 jobs and you'll have 40 applicants. And we're losing people in background investigations. Obviously, social media is playing a big part in that. People need to keep their thoughts to themselves at various times in their lives.

[16:34] Michelle: What? You don't have to share everything?

[16:36] Charlie: You do not. So recruitment retention has been this, my recruitment of female firefighters. Having a diverse workforce, it's so important to have female firefighters, because whether it's my wife, friend, female colleague, men and women look at things differently. You can't have 10 people of the same gender, race, et cetera. You've got to have so much diversity because everybody has a different way of attacking a situation. And we need that innovation. And a lot of the larger departments are paying so much more money than they are here in the Central Valley. So I'm losing a lot of my potential candidates to larger agencies. I just can't compete with LA City, L.A. county, and some of these bigger outfits.

[17:22] Michelle: Right.

[17:22] Charlie: So those are two of the bigger things right now at this point. And budgets. Everybody wants more firefighters, and more stations, but no one wants to pay more taxes. So we're very fortunate in this area to have a. I've got a tremendous board of Supervisors and cao and I think locally City of Visalia has done very well supporting the needs of their departments. So basically it's recruitment, retention, and tax dollars. 

[17:52] Michelle: Okay. Yeah, I have a budget question for you. Okay, so we'll get into that, since we were just talking about that. So where does the budget for the fire department come from? And how do you balance the needs of the department with the needs of the community?

[18:10] Charlie: The vast majority of the county fire department budget comes from property tax. And then what we have is a general fund contribution that's made from the general fund to make sure we balance our budget. Our budget now is about $37 million. It's grown significantly from when the department was formed in '07 from Cal Fire transfer. One of the missions of that was to recruit, retain, and have local employment. Rather than having a Cal Fire Agency. Cal Fire is a very good partner of ours. But just having local employment, being able to have a local labor pool, does it meet the needs of our department? You know, you ask the average tax-paying citizen, they'll say, yeah, okay, you ask the average fire chief. And no, we need three times that amount of staffing. Except it all depends on a perspective. Tulare County is so diverse in its population geography. We have federal land, we have state land, we have local land, we have structure and responsibility, we have urban search and rescue as well as emergency medical services or what's called an all-hazard, all-risk fire department. And there's a lot of competing interests. But is it enough? No, we need more. And I'm working with the board and the CEO to get us more. But in that same whole balance of life, people do not want to pay more taxes.

[19:36] Michelle: Right, I get that. And they also want fire to respond when they're having an emergency.

[19:44] Charlie: Oh, absolutely, right, absolutely. And it's a delicate balance. And I think one of the things that we do very well in the fire service that a lot of other industries could take some note from us is we do automatic aid and mutual aid with each other. So if I say it has a large fire, we'll send our closest three resources. We'll get resources from what's called the operational area. So as far as getting the initial attack and getting things taken care of, we don't have a shortage of resources in the beginning. If we get a second and third, we have some depth issues. But we do have a master mutual aid system that, sadly, we put into practice every year with a wildland incident.

[20:22] Michelle: Yeah.

[20:22] Charlie: So, wow.

[20:25] Michelle: Seems like such a huge challenge to make everything come out in the green and to have good coverage and to have happy firefighters and happy communities that feel safe and protected. And if we just had that money tree in the backyard, we could just go pick some off when times are tough.

[20:51] Charlie: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's a big challenge for the resources we have and the money we have. Most local fire agencies do a tremendous job, and it's such a great network in our operational area. And whether it's Visalia, Tulare, Porterville, some of the bigger agencies in the county filling in the unincorporated area, but our smaller agencies, Woodlake, always throws in whenever we have big incidents. It's a great relationship. Dinuba. It's one big team, and that really helps us.

[21:22] Michelle: Yeah. And another point to remember is that you don't just serve Tulare County, you guys go and help other counties as well. When there's been big fires in the state of California, in other states, you guys have gone and helped them. So you're sharing the love.

[21:42] Charlie: Absolutely. And it's just at some point, and again, talking about reciprocity in relationships, at some point, somebody's going to need our help. Vice versa, we're going to need somebody else's.

[21:52] Michelle: Yeah. So, yeah. That's awesome. Okay, well, we're going to talk about one of the big challenges in firefighting. And I'll say that I didn't know this until I started listening to the Behind the Shield podcast. And I think I had told you about this. The host is James Geering. He's a retired firefighter and just a fierce advocate for firefighter mental health. And this comes from the California State Fires Association website for February 2024. And what they said was, that recent studies, including the Ruderman white paper on mental health and suicide of first responders, reveal a troubling trend. Firefighters are more likely to die by suicide than in the line of duty, which just blew me away, with an estimated 100 suicides each year. And a suicide rate of 18 per 100,000. Firefighters face a significantly higher risk compared to the general population's thirteen per hundred thousand. This stark reality underscores the urgent need for awareness and intervention as PTSD, mental and behavioral health issues, and the inherent stressors of the job. One of the things that James talks about a lot is sleep deprivation and all the research that's been done in terms of it being a precursor to mental health decline, which can lead to suicide. And part of that has to do with the schedules that firefighters are working. So what schedule do you currently have and what would it take to transition to a 24/72 model?

[23:38] Charlie: We currently have a 48/96 and there's been so much study through either labor unions or FBA on this schedule. And 48/96, 214 off is a commuter schedule. It's a green schedule. It's one that our unions as well as our command staff have advocated for and it's been in place for over 20 years. The 24. I'm sorry, the 24/72. Yeah, the four-platoon system I think would be great to have one day on and three days off. But most departments now are working what's called a 56-hour work week. Going to that you would have to hire 25% more people. You can't put a cost on things and providing service. One of the larger agencies in the state, Cal Fire, is going from a 72-hour work week to a 66-hour work week and ultimately a 56-hour work week to match up with the rest of the fire departments in the state and nation at this point. The one on, three off, I know the Seattle Fire Department works that schedule and it's a tremendous schedule. With the current existing budget, there is no way we could do that in the local area.

[24:58] Michelle: Yeah, and you just said you have a problem right now with recruitment and retention.

[25:04] Charlie: On the PTSD side of things. Because when I first got into the industry, we had a 24/48. It was one on, two off and you were going to work or coming home. Going to work, coming home. So the 48/96 is much better and you're there for a little bit. It gives you a second day to eat, sleep, bond with your crew, train with your crew, and then you've got four days, 96 hours to kind of recoup. PTSD in the fire service is very challenging. We have so many resources and we have both the peer support group and critical incident stress debriefing, which are far different. But we have a counseling program post significant incidents as well as day-to-day to make sure the wellness of our employees, the only way that we could have in the suicide rates, again, are alarming. We have more of those than we have line-of-duty deaths, at least in the state of California. And every year it doesn't seem like it's getting any better as far as preventing some of that. It's not to be insensitive, but perhaps some entry-level psychological testing to see if somebody is, you know, suited for this job. Not to say because there are things that you see in this job that you cannot unsee, whether it's nursing, emergency room fire service, or police officers. It's a tough job. And there I can think of right off the top of my head, dates, times, et cetera, when I was on four significant incidents throughout my career, and the majority of those were pediatrics. And I have a coping mechanism. You know, I've talked to people, talked to counselors. I have a tremendous support system at home. But yeah, that's one of those things. I am not a PhD, but you can tell if you know your personnel well when something isn't right. And that's just walking around talking to people, knowing what their, you know, quirks, habits, idiosyncrasies are and just making eye contact with people. But in our industry, I think we're working in a better fashion. I don't see how we're ever going to get away from the sleep deprivation with the nature of the job.

[27:19] Michelle: Yeah, it's so pervasive. And again, there are parallels in nursing. We don't work the kind of shifts that you work in terms of 24 hours. So we work 12-hour shifts or 8-hour shifts, and you go home and sleep. My sister was a flight nurse for many years and they would be on for 48 hours and sometimes it would never stop. They're just flying for 48 hours and you're not getting any rest, you're not sleeping. You might lie down for an hour and then you get another call again. And I see a lot of similarities in the fire service as well, but man, we gotta push. I feel like we gotta push for that always. In your career have you seen a change in the amount of mental health crises that your own colleagues, your own staff are going through? Is it worse? 

[28:28] Charlie: You know, it's different. I have more populace now in the state of California. We have more call volume. Public service agencies are required to do much, much more work. And I think the embracing of potential mental issues in the fire service as well as just life in general. When I was a young firefighter, I had a very tough group of Vietnam-era vets who were my captains, my leaders, and you'd better not never, ever share your feelings with them, which was okay with me. I just have a different mechanism for processing as everybody does. But in this day and age, I think it's more reported. I think it's always been there. It's just people handle things differently now and for the better, thank goodness because there are a lot of things that were unrecognized and you could go home. And the bad thing is it's just you don't have these things where I say, hey, neighbor, I'm mentally ill. I'm going through X, Y, and Z. It manifests itself with drunk driving, and abusive behavior. There are systemic effects with this that once you peel back the onion thing, man, that guy's a jerk. No, it's not. They're going through X, Y, and Z. Based on ABC. So it's a very, very diverse thing, and I think we're getting better in it, but it's always been here. It's just more pronounced now. And the way we're handling it is far much more progressive now.

[29:54] Michelle: And I think the counseling community, too, is getting better at matching counselors with specific training in first responder speak and very specific issues that you encounter, like all the trauma that you can't unsee as you referenced. And, you know, you can't just take a general counselor to kind of handle those kinds of things. They are oftentimes left in shreds by hearing the stories of firefighters and first responders. So it has to be somebody that's really specific to what you guys do.

[30:38] Charlie: Absolutely. Yeah.

[30:40] Michelle: So I think we're getting better there too.

[30:42] Charlie: I do, too.

[30:43] Michelle: Okay, let's switch gears. In episode 102, I interviewed Kevin Pannell, a project manager. It seems like with all the logistics and the planning and the operations involved in responding to a fire or to an EMS call there's a lot of project management going on. How do you manage the whole thing?

[31:12] Charlie: It is. There are so many different sides to the fire service. There's operations, suppression, prevention, and there's the day-to-day that we try to get done. And normally what we've done in the fire service and we've taken a lot of our action from the military or Incident command systems. But dividing things up into a chore requires a lot. But the bad stereotype of the firefighter is these guys get paid to sleep, what the heck are they doing? And I think as we embrace more of corporate America we've been able to establish these programs as far as okay, I've got a uniform section in A, B and C, I've got a radio section in A, B and C. I've got extrication and tools, hand tools and equipment. I've got a self-contained breathing apparatus. No different than our incident command system structure. So we assign these to different captains. Usually, it's based on what your call volume is and based on the talents you're embracing in a job. So Station 25, South Tulare, they do all my personal protective equipment. So they have to do with ordering, fitting, sizing, washing, cleaning, replacing, and decontamination. That's their responsibility. Say you and I are working a 40-hour job and this is our sole project. Okay, I expect this done by this, this, and this. You always calculate into okay, I've got a field captain, a battalion chief taking this, let's exercise that. They're going to run seven calls per day based on this, this project that would take normally somebody in a 40-hour work week is probably going to take us about six weeks to complete. And as far as accomplishing tasks, because we can't just sit around and be reactive, we've got to be proactive. Plus it helps people for succession planning as they decide to promote up. It gives them an opportunity to embrace a budget at a younger rank and it gives them the buy-in on something that hey, I want this helmet. Hey, I want this particular thing. Okay, show me the research on it. Why is this the best? Why is this most cost-effective? It just makes a better fire service.

[33:23] Michelle: Yeah, it sounds like there's a lot of project management going on every day.

[33:27] Charlie: Absolutely. And when people aspire to get into these jobs, these administrative jobs, these chief officer jobs, I'm going to help them up for help them to success. We don't want them to go, oh my God, what did I just get into? What did I sign up for? I didn't want to do that exactly. I just wanted to drag hose.

[33:46] Michelle: Yeah. I really loved interviewing Kevin because again, he was kind of out of my wheelhouse. But then I found so many similar similarities in like nurses or project managers. Every day, you know, they're, they're planning out their day from the moment they come on shift and it was something that I thought, oh, this is so foreign. But then we started talking. I was like, no, it's. It's not. I'm familiar with that. So it's been said that there's a fire season. Is that like a myth or is that real?

[34:21] Charlie: You know, not to get into climate change and any of those controversial topics, but when I was a young firefighter in the '80s, it was usually, you know, May to October and we're done. And then it started going from April to November. And then I remember sending crews up to Kennedy Meadows during Christmas. Oh, gosh, it was like December 23rd when that happened back in 2002. In California, there is no fire season. It is always fire season. It's just the way that it is. The big fire that we had in Oroville, up in Butte County, was right around Thanksgiving.

[35:00] Michelle: That's right.

[35:01] Charlie: And it's just, you have these seasons, and that was the Camp fire. Oakland Hills happened on October 22nd in '91. We've had these marquee incidents that just don't follow any of the rules. And seeing an incident going down on an incident, say in Malibu that I went to in the early '90s, has different burning features now in 2024. So it's whether it's landscape, climate change, or drought, there are so many factors weighing in on this. And then some of these things with geography, topography, they're just going to happen. But one of the things that we've had that's really affected this fire season is we had a bark beetle infestation post-drought in 2014, 2015. We are working in forest services, work California, and we have a local tree mortality task force and a fuels crew to try and reduce some of these. But Tulare County is number one in the state. And I want to say at last count, we're at about 40 million dead trees. So our biggest thing, obviously we're not going to cut down 40 million trees. There's not enough staffing for the next 500 years. So we're trying to take care of infrastructure, roadways to where we've got good points of egress. Sadly, a lot of these have been eliminated just due to the pure fire cedar fire in the last marquee fires we've had over the last seven, or eight years. But yeah, longley, to your point, there's no fire season in California. It's always fire season.

[36:31] Michelle: Yeah. And I feel like if there are no fires around here, you guys are going to be going to another part of California that's experiencing fire.

[36:40] Charlie: Exactly.

[36:41] Michelle: Yeah. Okay, thank you for that. Okay, let's talk about family dynamics. Okay, so you mentioned earlier that you have a beautiful wife of 37 years, and three children. So talk about some of these things: the impact of long hours, unpredictable schedules. As I'm sure when you were growing up in the fire service where you know you had your family and you, you guys were all growing up together but what impact did it have on your family and what sort of things did you do to mitigate some of that stress?

[37:19] Charlie: You know you're writing off 33% of your life. You're going to be at work for 10 days a month out of the 30 at that time with that particular schedule. So you knew you wrote that off. So you had some basic things that it's like a marriage or any other relationship. There are some things that you specifically had to put at the top of your priority list. And there's going to be times where you're completely inaccessible and then there's times that you're not. But in the advent of technology and cell phones, it used to be when you, somebody would call the station or you'd call somebody to work overtime, you get to know their wife, their kids, their husband and you'd say no, tell them I'm not here, I can't work. So you get a lot of that extracurricular that made us a more close-knit community. But I guess just checking the box to make sure you're doing all the right things. We had three children under the age of five so we didn't sleep in the '90s and but I always knew what communication style we had and I'd always call in the evening and that evening went from maybe 4:00 to whenever the kids went to bed and I'd say, you know, talk to Kirby. She'd usually like to leave post-it notes on my bag or something. Nate would always explain his day in detail. And Jake was just excited about us doing things, coming home, playing catch, what have you. So I had to make sure I hit all those topics with them. And then as they got older that kind of transitioned into texting, phone calls, et cetera, FaceTime. But there was always the nontraditional stuff that I tried to embrace. Love hanging out with the folks at work, they're great people. But I didn't live for my days off, going hunting, fishing, et cetera. I volunteered in all three of my kids' classrooms until they were third grade and I guess I was dorky by then, but I Was able to do that. And a lot of nontraditional 8 to 5 dads or traditional 8 to 5 dads don't get to do this. So. And it not only helped me with the relationship with the kids, I got to see who the kids were hanging out with.

[39:29] Michelle: Yeah.

[39:30] Charlie: You got to concentrate on the other 20 days a month and there's overtime, et cetera. But I was able to get the sports boosters. I was able to learn everything I know about youth swimming to where I started meets in high school. And even when Nate went to COS and Jake went to, I started meets at COS. So I just tried to embrace the culture that was there. And okay, this is the time I have. This is what I'm going to do with it. And, you know, there are times when I would call Madeline and say, hey, do you mind if I go out of county? She goes, you're already somewhere else, aren't you? You're calling me from a phone booth. I said, you know, I love you. This is going to be, you know, so much overtime. So. So it was just then, you know, my wife is just, you know, she does everything for us. I couldn't, you know, she's just the coolest person. She's still beautiful, but she keeps everything together. She's a rudder on her boat.

[40:29] Michelle: She's amazing. I see her doing your yard and your yard looks amazing. And she's out there working hard and. And I think she's loving it. Like, you know, I don't think she's suffering a bit. I think she loves it.

[40:43] Charlie: She's pretty cool. But I think it is embracing what you have rather than what you don't have. And I haven't missed a lot of sporting events. Nate and Jake both swam and dove in college. Kirby was more my academic. I never missed her spelling bees or some of her great academic endeavors. I always tried to, if it was really, really necessary, which are all necessary. I had great colleagues through the years who would shift. Trade with me for a couple of hours. Hey, I gotta take a couple of hours off. I'll pay you three back. I'll work New Year's Eve for you.

[41:15] Michelle: Right? Yeah, that happens. That happens in nursing, too. Yeah. And that support of the spouse, the significant other, the kids, is so, so important. And just the time off of work is so important in terms of, like, really prioritizing the quality that you spend with your family. Yeah.

[41:40] Charlie: And we still do dinner once a week. Everybody's living locally. And I think, you know, two of the three. All three of them are in. We do Arts Visalia. There's adult things where I'm thinking, okay, you know, the kids still want to hang out, and they're not wanting to hang out because they need money. They're wanting to do things.

[42:01] Michelle: So because they like you guys.

[42:03] Charlie: We still walk around the park. We still. I don't know. There's just a lot of things that. And I attribute a lot of this to my wife, but there's just a lot of things that we do that we do as a family. And a lot of those parents, you will hear that say, I can't wait till these guys go to college.

[42:18] Michelle: I can't wait till. Right.

[42:19] Charlie: I know.

[42:19] Michelle: And you're like, what? Yeah. Yeah, I know. Okay. How do you stay up to date on all the latest developments in firefighting technology and then, like, incorporate these into your department?

[42:31] Charlie: Very good question. There are recommendations, there are requirements, and I think just a lot of reading, but a lot of networking. I have myself. I'm on the Firescope board of directors, which sets policy. Feel free to Google it. They got a really cheesy picture of me.

[42:50] Michelle: I'll put the link in the show notes. That's great.

[42:52] Charlie: But we're part of this group of 23 fire chiefs that put together policy for the California Fire Service. And I'm on that board of directors. I have members on the task force and the operations team. So I think staying current, being involved with what industry standards are as well as industry standards of California because we're so unique throughout the fire service, is probably one of the most important ventures that I have. And as you embrace these standards, you have to look at the functionality of the Finance, the fiscal end of it to make sure you can make these happen. The biggest thing for me in this big world of fire service, I need to keep the public safe, and I need to keep my folks safe. And if I'm doing anything that's contradictory to that, I don't do it. So that's what my bottom line is.

[43:43] Michelle: Yeah. Last year, I went to a firefighter community fair. It was over at Recreation Park.

[43:51] Charlie: Okay.

[43:51] Michelle: Yeah. And I was at the firefighter booth, and they were showing the new, and I forget the name of it, but it's like an automated CPR.

[44:02] Charlie: Yep.

[44:03] Michelle: That thing is awesome.

[44:04] Charlie: It is. As long as you got your depth punched in. Right. But, yeah, that's amazing.

[44:09] Michelle: I thought, oh, my gosh, this has to just save so many people. Because doing CPR, I can say I've only done it on babies. And it's very easy on babies, but I know on adults it can be very, very exhausting. And to do that for such a long period of time and to have a tool like that, it's just amazing. And then when they told me how much it cost, that's amazing too, isn't it? It was like, oh my gosh, like, do you have like a donation where you can put some donations in there? Like, that's crazy.

[44:46] Charlie: And you talked about advancement in technology, the CPR, the automated compression machine, but our extrication tools, when I first started, I mean, those spreaders were hydraulic, they were Hirsch tools, Jaws alive. And that unit was 78 pounds. I had a traffic accident one time where I forgot to take my keys out of my pants. I still have a dent in my quad from where we've gone to what's called e-draulics now that are battery-charged. That same tool weighs about 20 pounds.

[45:21] Michelle: Wow.

[45:21] Charlie: So it, we are, we have innovation. And all the plastic pyrolytes were able to do some things that are a lot more, I don't know, easier on the old body because this job is tough on the body.

[45:32] Michelle: Your job is so physically demanding and anything that could make it easier is just. It has to be welcome.

[45:39] Charlie: Exactly.

[45:40] Michelle: Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. Okay, so we're going to start wrapping up here.

[45:46] Charlie: Okay.

[45:47] Michelle: And what advice do you have for aspiring firefighters about how can they best prepare themselves for a career in fire service?

[45:58] Charlie: You know, the vocational education is important. Firefighter 1 EMT 1 paramedicine. But I would say in this day and age, going to college, whether it's COS or going off to a four-year university, having some education in something other than the fire service business, public administration, psychology, there are so many things. And just, yeah, you need to have Firefighter 1 EMT 1 to get yourself in the door. But once you're in the door, you want to make sure college is showing that you've set this goal, you've achieved it and it opens your mind up a little bit, whether it's being more tolerant of other people's opinions because you're in a constant group setting. In the fire service, we need to be able to get along with each other. But that and the million dollar physical fitness, you want to make sure that you're working out, healthy lifestyle, you know, staying in some facsimile of shape. I work out a lot, I need to eat better and I'm you know, pushing the envelope with my age, but it's still I can get up a hill or get up a ladder. I just don't get up like I used to in my '20s.

[47:07] Michelle: Right, of course.

[47:08] Charlie: And just passion for the job.

[47:10] Michelle: Yeah.

[47:10] Charlie: I see teachers, firefighters, nursing, insert any profession here you see people that are doing it for the right reason and you see people that aren't. And hopefully, our processes weed people out but have a passion. Know you're going to work 10 days a month and. 10 days a month. Cool. Yeah. They're always the wrong 10 days. But it's just, you know, going into somebody's house, we have so much public trust and being able to be that person that, you know you're going into chaos. Somebody's called 911 because they can't handle their own situation. Be able to be the complex problem solver that you signed up for. And that's just it. And it's just if you have interpersonal communication skills, we can put you to work. That is so important. Not only this, but anatomically you have two ears for a reason.

[48:01] Michelle: Yeah, that's a great message and I love your message of getting a well-rounded education. You know, yes, you could have a passion for fire service, you could have a passion for nursing, but don't let it consume you. Right. Get have other areas of your life that excite you, that make you that person that you want to be, that people depend on. Yeah, that's a great message. Well, what are some of your proudest accomplishments as a fire chief and what goals do you still have for your future accomplishments?

[48:43] Charlie: I would say the biggest accomplishment that I had was when I was on an engine. I had a couple of saves in the EMS setting that are just, I know they made a difference in somebody's life. The fire camp program that we started in Visalia and also we're in Tulare County. Being able to hit kids at 5, 6, 7, 8 year old and to show them that there's so much that you can do as a firefighter. I think getting that and seeing those kids evolve into our cadet program and our volunteers and into full-time firefighters, that's something that's just huge. Creating the paramedic program in the city of Visalia was so big for me and I said that started out when I was a captain and again, you know, it's. I'm not taking credit for this. It was part of a team that did this. It's never, it's never always me. As with everything else, I'm always lifted up by other people who supported me throughout the years. And I think the future with the county, I'm sort of on the tail end. Try not to tell the board to CAO that, but I've got a few more years to put in. Just because I need one more station. I'm redoing the Goshen station. We're going to relocate that. We've started this lease purchase program that saved the taxpayers so much money. We were able to buy 11 pieces of apparatus for around $8 billion at a 1%, 1.1% interest rate. That's almost paid off and just improving our staffing model and trying to get more people on apparatus. But my biggest accomplishment is, I mean, it happened on my first day. I mean, just being part of this industry. No matter what spoke I am in the wheel. I can always look back and go, man, I, for the greater portion of my life, I've been a firefighter. I'm like, people will call me, hey, chief. Hey, Chief. I'm going to be a Charlie a heck of a lot longer than I'm going to be a chief, so I'm pretty okay with myself.

[50:40] Michelle: I see the pride that, like, it's visible, you know. Our listeners, of course, can't see that, but I see it in, you know, how you speak about just the love of doing what you do. Yeah, that's amazing. Amazing thing to have. Okay, you don't have to answer this question right now because it is kind of like one of those, like, hijack questions, but you can think about it. Is there someone you recommend as a guest on this podcast?

[51:13] Charlie: Oh, I've got a bunch of people. I'll send you.

[51:15] Michelle: Really?

[51:16] Charlie: Absolutely.

[51:17] Michelle: Excited!

[51:17] Charlie: Unfortunately, they'll all have, like, my background. They'll be firefighters or cops. But no, let me reach in. Yeah, there'd be some great people.

[51:25] Michelle: Oh, that's great. Okay. Love it. Yeah, introduce us. Okay. And then for anyone who wants to reach out to you, where can we find you?

[51:33] Charlie: County Fire Department. My county email address is cnorman@tularecounty.ca.gov they can call the office if they like to talk to somebody in person. Ironically, when I get out of this, I'm going to do entry-level firefighter interviews. And I've this week I have two people that have contacted me and their kids have contacted me. Hey, I'm looking at becoming a firefighter and all the bureaucratic and budget work that I do, reaching out and seeing somebody that shows some interest. Once this generation, the door is always open. And I'm never too busy, but that's what it's all about. Training the next generation.

[52:12] Michelle: Yeah. I share your love for the new people coming up and always loved being on interview panels. Was on a lot of interview panels. And so, yeah, I share that. That's awesome. Well, man, thank you so much for coming on, Charlie. I really appreciate you. First of all, saying yes. That's the first step. Right when your neighbor knocks on your door is like, do you want to be on my podcast? And you're like, yeah, sure. So thank you so much and just thank you for everything that you've shared today and overshared. Kidding. You haven't overshared anything. And thank you for what you do for our community. And man, just have a lot of respect.

[52:57] Charlie: Thank you. Right back at you.

[52:59] Michelle: Thank you. Okay, we're ready. We're at the end. I told you, at the end we do this thing. It's just five minutes of fun. And it's for everyone to just see off duty, Charlie. Okay. Okay. When you're not wearing the fire chief hat. Oh, you ready? And some of your kids helped me out with this. Oh, no. 

[54:02] Michelle: All right. If you were stranded on a desert island and could only take one thing with you to read, what would it be?

[54:11] Charlie: One thing to read, Probably Edgar Allan Poe. Some type of macabre story.

[54:18] Michelle: Wow. Okay. It's almost Halloween too. And I have to say, you guys do the best yard art for every damn holiday. I don't know where you get your stuff. I don't know where you store all your stuff. It's crazy. My grandkids absolutely love it. Every time they come over, they want to walk over to Charlie's house to see what he has in his yard. It's so fun.

[54:44] Charlie: Oh, yes, it is.

[54:45] Michelle: Okay. I was told that you are a fan of classic cars. American mostly. So do you know what American classic car sold at auction for over $13 million?

[54:58] Charlie: Was it Steve McQueen's 1968 Bullitt Mustang?

[55:04] Michelle: No, I don't think so. It was a 62 Shelby Cobra.

[55:08] Charlie: Really?

[55:09] Michelle: That's what it said.

[55:11]: Okay.

[55:12] Michelle: 13.75 million.

[55:13] Charlie: Huh? Okay, I missed that one.

[55:16] Michelle: I mean, this website could have been like years back, I don't know.

[55:22] Charlie: Oh, no, no.

[55:22] Michelle: You would know more than me for sure.

[55:24] Charlie: I'm sure it's more than my Mustang.

[55:27] Michelle: Right. Okay. I also heard that you're a fan of the Oakland A's.

[55:32] Charlie: Yes.

[55:32] Michelle: Okay. What did Reggie Jackson do in the 1971 All Start game that brought him more attention than ever?

[55:42] Charlie: Hit a home run that was immeasurable off a Detroit Tiger light stanchion Stadium.

[55:48] Michelle: Man, you're detailed. All I had was he hit a mammoth home run. That's awesome.

[55:53] Charlie: That's what made Reggie. Reggie. When you're Hank Aaron and Reggie and they name candy bars after you, you've.

[55:58] Michelle: Done something like maybe one day there will be a Charlie bar. What would it have in it?

[56:08] Charlie: Definitely nuts.

[56:11] Michelle: Okay. My perfect day of fishing would look like... 

[56:17] Charlie: Central California, boat, minimal noise.

[56:21] Michelle: Okay, there's a wrench in your hand. What are you doing?

[56:25] Charlie: Probably chasing a kid.

[56:31] Michelle: That's great.

[56:32] Charlie: Probably be trying to show Jake or explain something to Big Jake on how to readjust something and what the torque specs are.

[56:41] Michelle: Okay. Love it. What's the oldest known fishing hook made from? Do you know?

[56:47] Charlie: I do not. Grandpa Norman used to make the oldest known fishing hook. It's the oldest one I know that we had was made out of brass.

[56:57] Michelle: Bone. That would have to be a long time ago.

[56:59] Charlie: That'd have to be. Yeah.

[57:00] Michelle: A long, long time ago. Okay, we're in your home and there's a picture on your wall of a favorite travel destination. Where is it?

[57:13] Charlie: Disneyland.

[57:14] Michelle: Oh, I love it. Disneyland. Disney fans. Okay. And I have warned you about this. So I have two grandkids and I told them that I was going to be talking with you and did they have any questions for you. So my granddaughter is seven and her question is, how does a fire start?

[57:37] Charlie: That is a great question. Fuel, heat, chemical chain reaction. We have what's called the fire tetrahedron. If you eliminate any of those, it will not start. But you have to have those three elements to start a fire. Fuel, heat, oxygen, and chemical chain reaction is a fourth.

[57:55] Michelle: Awesome. She's going to be listening, so she'll know now. And my grandson is nine, almost ten. And his question. How does it feel to save someone's life?

[58:09] Charlie: Unbelievable. There's nothing better. And I look back to when I'm having a bad day or I don't have enough budget money or something that seems pretty big at the time. In reality, it's very minuscule, because giving somebody, whether it's a defibrillation, whether it's epinephrine, whether it's some type of D50, that's taking them out of their condition to bring somebody back that potentially would've died or was clinically dead, it's amazing. It's amazing. And I realize, okay, I could retire now because this happened if I was part of it, so.

[58:48] Michelle: Yeah. Well, thank you for that. It is a feeling that is really hard to describe, that you just feel it, like, right here in your chest. Thank you so much for everything you do.

[58:59] Charlie: Oh, thank you for having me. This is great. It's always good to see, you know, the neighbors, and we're very fortunate to live in this cul de sac area.

[59:07] Michelle: We are really blessed. Yeah. Some great neighbors.

[59:10] Charlie: Yeah.

[59:11] Michelle: Thank you, Charlie.

[59:12] Charlie: Oh, you betcha.