CRNA School Prep Academy Founder and CEO, Jenny Finnell

[00:00] Michelle: This week, I had an informative conversation with the founder and CEO of the CRNA School Prep Academy, Jenny Finnell. Like a great nurse entrepreneur, Jenny identified a need: CRNA candidates were struggling to get into these highly competitive schools, so she created the Academy, a place where potential students can find resources on how to land the all-important interview, how to make themselves stand out in a crowd of candidates, how to improve their emotional intelligence and important financial coaching because CRNA school is expensive! If being a CRNA is even remotely on your radar, you need to find Jenny now. And she's easy to find. When I said she's everywhere, she is. She's everywhere. Her website, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, podcast, and blog are packed full of highly sought-after information for the CRNA candidate to find and secure placement in a school, making them one step closer to achieving their dream. And Jenny's generosity of mentorship makes this possible. In the five-minute snippet, who needs the lottery?  Well, good morning, Jenny. Welcome to the podcast.

[01:40] Jenny: Thank you for having me, Michelle. I'm happy to be here.

[01:43] Michelle: Well, you're welcome. I'm happy you're here, too, because I'm excited for this conversation. I saw you on Instagram, I saw your profile, and I said, oh, wow, this is so interesting. The CRNA Prep School Academy. So what's this all about? I need to find out. And I asked you to come on, and you said yes. So here we are, and it's Valentine's Day, so happy Valentine's Day.

[02:11] Jenny: Yes. Happy Valentine's Day. Yeah, no, I'm excited to share what I've been working on. I definitely call it a passion project that definitely has bloomed into being what it is today. But about four years ago, I started getting on social media more than I ever had been in the past, and I called myself Jenny CRNA. And so I started getting people reaching out to me saying, hey, how did you become a CRNA? Or maybe they've been rejected and they kind of wanted to talk through some things to help strengthen their application. So that's kind of how it all started, was just, again putting myself out there for who I was and ultimately giving people my cell phone number and just mentoring them, which I found really enjoyable and fun. And I think it was kind of around the fact that I remember being that nurse, fearful of rejection and being always kind of like wondering if I really could achieve this goal, I feel like it was a really ambitious goal to set my eyes on when I was in nursing school. And I always kind of had that fear of what if I don't make it. And so I think when people started reaching out to me, looking for advice and help and guidance, it kind of tugged on those heartstrings that I remember kind of feeling that same fear and just looking for help in any given corner. And so I kind of wanted to be that for other people. And so that's how CRNA School Prep Academy was born. We've now mentored over 5000 ICU nurses and we have faculty involvement who do a lot of our educational concepts. Our goal is really kind of not only to get students into school, we want nurses to get into CRNA school, but we actually kind of pride ourselves. We really look at trying to make a holistic applicant and a holistic pathway for nurses to not only get them into school but to strengthen them as an ICU nurse and therefore also equally strengthening them as they start their CRNA journey so they are successful in getting to graduation day.

[04:05] Michelle: Well, that mentorship is so important. So was it your goal when you started out in nursing school to become a CRNA? How did that happen?

[04:15] Jenny: Yeah, that's a good question. I actually did not even know what a CRNA was when I started off in nursing school. But I will say, even as a child, I was kind of that weirdo who would watch Discovery Health, I'd watch surgeries on TV and I always found surgery to be incredibly fascinating. So I always had kind of a pull toward the operating room, but again, not really on my radar. It wasn't until I was actually in nursing school that I heard of the profession of a certified registered nurse anesthetist and started doing some research. And I was like, wow, really? Nurses get to do that? That's amazing. I want to do that. So I started putting myself in situations where I would be closer to the operating room, getting shadowing experiences, and then kind of researching the career path and learning more about critical care nursing, which I knew was part of the career path. And I just kind of felt like it was a good fit. It kind of lit me up. I got goosebumps when I thought about becoming a CRNA. I knew it was the right fit because again, it kind of lit me up inside and I kind of made it my goal. I would say by the time I was a junior in college working on my nursing degree, I made it my goal and I made the move as a nurse's assistant to the ICU, and I really didn't look back from there.

[05:31] Michelle: Wow, that's a great story. And I think that just your description of being lit up, that's a definite yes. This is something that I want to do, that passion that you feel inside, and I can hear it coming through as you talk about it. Okay, so now we're a nurse and talk about the process of becoming a CRNA and what type of work experience do I need to just be able to apply.

[06:03] Jenny: Yeah. So this is kind of, I wish I could give a really black and white answer, but I'm going to kind of make sure I preference this with. You have to first research the CRNA school that you are interested in applying to see what they qualify as ICU experience. There are some general units that will always be safe, such as an adult ICU, as long as it's a high acuity ICU, which means you're taking patients who are intubated on advanced life support like ECMO or CVVHD, also known as Prisma, which is kind of like an artificial kidney machine. So just making sure you're getting high acuity experiences. But the reason why I want to say you want to look into your school first is because some schools will take the neonatal ICU, some will take the pediatric ICU experience, some will even accept er experience, but not all. So again, you want to make sure before you pick an ICU unit that you are giving it your best or putting your best foot forward by picking a unit that they take open arms. If you hear the words individual basis or things of that nature, it means it's not a preferred unit. So you want to make sure you're picking an ICU that your school, your dream school, or even if it's two or three different schools, will take open arms. Again, the safe units are things like the medical ICU, surgical ICU, CVICU, and anything in between. All of that, meaning there's a CTICU and the CCU. So as long as it's some type of adult ICU, that's pretty safe.

[07:35] Michelle: So some experience in critical care?

[07:40] Jenny: Yeah, one to two years, depending on your program. I would say the majority of schools, it's one year of critical care experience, and that is it by the time you start the program. But what I will say is that the average applicant will have about three years of ICU experience by the time they gain acceptance. And so even though you can get into CNA school with just that year minimum. Most of the applicants have more than that because if you think about it, you really want to think of your ICU time as an enrichment period. You want to look at leadership roles, you want to really focus in on your critical care knowledge and understanding. So the longer, shorter stent you're there, the less likely is that you're going to be taking on advanced life support like CBVHD or ECMO. Usually, they reserve that for nurses who have been on the unit for six to eight months at least, before they cross-train into different types of advanced life support modalities. So again, most nurses have more than that. But I have had plenty of nurses who want to get into CNN school as soon as possible, and they plan it. So they're interviewing with about nine to ten months of experience, and by the time they start the program, they will have that solid year of ICU experience under their belt.

[08:57] Michelle: Man, a year. It sounds so short. It goes by so fast. And as an ICU nurse or anybody in critical care, it just seems like so much to take on. But I think that there is a certain person that goes into this field and I don't know, you've seen a lot of students, you've interacted with a lot of students, and I think probably they have a real strong drive. They have a real high emotional intelligence, and they probably don't have a lot of trouble with, I guess, learning some of those really deep concepts.

[09:44] Jenny: Yes, I love how you mentioned emotional intelligence. That's a very large factor, and that's something that can be built on, by the way. So it's not like it's something you're born with. You actually develop that over time. So no worries if you're like, well, what is emotional intelligence? It does come with time, but it starts with awareness first and foremost. But yeah, I would say the ones who kind of beeline it for CRNA school are the ones who have been driven and really working while they're in nursing school, working on the things they need to do to be successful. If you decide later on your nursing career, like maybe as you're a senior student getting ready to graduate, that CRNA is what you want to do. It's really kind of hard to then say, well, within a year I'm going to be in CRNA school, it's very difficult because there's a lot of things that you have to do to make this journey a success and you don't want to bypass your learning experiences, which is why the average student has three years of ICU experience. There's a lot to be learned from the ICU, and you really should hone in on that. And even though the ICU is incredibly hard, it's a very hard period of your career. It's going to serve you so well when you actually become an okay, you.

[10:53] Michelle: You have your ICU experience, your critical care experience, and you're getting ready to apply to a school. Is that the time that they would consult with you? And the CRNA Prep School Academy, where does that kind of fit in?

[11:12] Jenny: Yeah, everyone kind of finds us at different periods in their CRNA journey, is what I call it. I would say the majority of people are actively looking for help and mentorship when they're actually getting ready to apply to CRNA school. So I will say that's probably where the majority of people are actively seeking out guidance, and they find us that way on the Internet. However, if we happen to find you early on in your nursing journey, whether you're a nursing student, we have nursing students who utilize CSBA. And I think the longer you can plan for this career path, the more successful you're going to be. I also like to mentor students earlier on in their nursing career because I think it allows them to miss a lot of detours and helps them hopefully not make some mistakes that are going to cause them some setbacks. So nursing students, again, utilize CSBA. We do a lot of ICU education, and so even if you are preparing to become an ICU nurse, we kind of help build the foundation of knowledge that you need to be successful as you make that transition. And then just the community, the support that we provide with the community is really helpful as well, allowing you to ask questions, getting answers not only from your peers but also CRNA faculty members and things of that nature. So really, people kind of can use CSPA from early on in nursing school all the way through the time that they're actually working on their application and getting into CRNA school.

[12:38] Michelle: Okay, great. Let's talk about the competitiveness of CRNA schools. Are they competitive and what kind of GPA do I need to be able to compete?

[12:52] Jenny: Yes. Oh, my gosh. It is very competitive. I think that is a very well-known fact. If you look at any threads on Reddit or Facebook, people will say you need a 4.0. And while that is 100% not true, GPA will definitely be one of the limiting factors as far as getting an interview and a mistake I commonly see people fall into or trap is, let's just say you have an ADN and you have a BSN, maybe your BSN is a 4.0 and your ADN is maybe a 3.0. And you think, okay, well, between the two of them, I have a right around a 3.5, I should be good. That's not necessarily the case, because your ADN, where you get kind of your fundamentals and your core sciences, is really important for CRNA school admissions. And so if that's barely a 3.0 and your core science GPA is under a 3.0, you're more than likely not going to get an interview for CRNA school. So you really have to break down your core sciences, which consist of chemistry, anatomy, pathophysiology, any math course like algebra, statistics, things of that nature, and microbiology. Those are kind of the primary core sciences that we see in a pre-nursing degree. And then your BSN, again, may look at things like pharmacology or health assessment, but for the most part, they don't look at nursing courses as heavily as they do the core science courses. So that can be kind of disheartening for some who are like, oh, I barely passed chemistry, I just got C's, because C's get degrees. And unfortunately, that's a very toxic mindset that can really limit opportunities down the road, which is why I would love to work with nursing students prior to these mistakes happening. It does require students to go back and retake some courses, or even take a graduate-level science course to prove that they were able to get an A. But overall, the competitive nature of CRNA schools is such that if you look at the national average, as far as how many applications they get, and the overall number of seats that they have, you're looking at between a twelve and 15% acceptance rate overall, which sounds really bad, but then when you look at what's the acceptance rate after you get an interview, then you're looking closer to 40%. So getting the interview is huge. If you get that step past where you get an interview, you have almost a 40% to 50% shot of getting in. So really we need to focus on getting that interview to give you better odds at getting into CRNA school.

[15:15] Michelle: That's so interesting about the ADN, and I kind of think of it almost, when you're getting your ADN you're kind of young. A lot of people are young, and maybe you don't have a clear goal of where you even want to work, and so maybe they're not taking it as seriously. And then to find out that, yeah, this is affecting you, later on, when you have figured out what you want to do and what your passion is, that could be really disappointing.  So I think that's great that your goal to get more directed towards nursing students, nursing schools on, hey, if this is even on your radar, let's start working towards it now.

[16:07] Jenny: I know. Yes. I wish I could be at every college dorm and give my mom lecture to all these freshmen coming in who are pre-nursing because over and over again, I didn't know what I wanted to do or I thought nursing was going to be the only degree I'd ever seek out. I never thought I'd go back to school. It's very common to hear these types of stories that I practiced, my cake stands. I didn't care about books. The CRNA schools, they know that. They know this. It happens all the time. And ultimately, what they're looking for, you guys is they're looking for trends. Meaning if you start off kind of rough in your academic career, but you finish strong in your nursing career, that's okay. That shows maturity. What they don't want to see is the opposite. They don't want to see that you started really strong and then you finished poorly. Or you're all over the place. You're getting A's and you're getting D's, and it's like, what's going on? That could be a signal that maybe you're not handling personal life issues as well. So they're looking for trends in the right direction. And if you've already messed up and you've gotten some Cs or maybe even some Ds, you're looking at retaking courses, you're looking at taking graduate-level courses. And it doesn't mean that all hope is lost. So I don't want to paint that picture at all. We've got plenty of students in who have less than the ideal academic background, but there is additional work to be done. That's all.

[17:31] Michelle: Okay, well, thank you for that clarification and kind of calming the nerves. I found myself getting nervous, like, oh, my gosh, I can see so many candidates kind of getting dismissed because of these things. But as you said, they like to see trends. So at the point where they're coming to you and they are joining your community, what types of education modules do you have available for those students?

[18:03] Jenny: Yeah, we do a lot of critical care knowledge, and we focus heavily on pharmacology. Our students, our community love pharmacology. They almost can't get enough of it. So we teach a lot of pharmacology down to the cellular level, so very in-depth pharmacology, and it's taught by CRNA faculty, you know, cardiac workshops, hemodynamics. We've even done clotting cascade, renal, and neuro. So we kind of do a lot of pathophysiology and a lot of pharmacology. Those are the nitty gritty educational topics we hit, especially with hemodynamic and fluid management. We also hit that as well. And then we do some lighter things, such as emotional intelligence coaching. We do group workshops for mock interview preparation. We do deep dives on resume preparation. We do everything in a group setting, but we do do one live event a month. We also bring in a professional financial planner, and we have them do educational webinars to help you understand how to not only pay for grad school, how to navigate those aspects, and those challenges, but also how to pay back your student loans effectively. So we do a lot of full circle. Again, we kind of look at our nurses as, where do you start this journey? What is it that you want to know, and what do we know you need to know? And we try to make sure we're filling those knowledge gaps.

[19:28] Michelle: It sounds like a really comprehensive program. I love that you're bringing in a financial planner. I just spoke with April Waddell. She's a finance coach for nurses. And that's one of the things she talked about, know, really, like, not, not really targeting, but focusing more on the nursing student. And she's doing that also with, like, when you graduate, you're going to have student loans and let's get your finances in order so that you can have more financial freedom later. So I love that you're doing that because how much is CRNA school?

[20:10] Jenny: Yeah, CRNA school is quite the investment, which is why you equally need to make sure this is 100% what you want to do because it's a heavy time and financial commitment. Now, the cost is going to vary quite a bit depending on what school you go to. I have another resource that lists the top ten most affordable CRNA schools, but I would say the range that you'll see as far as the cheapest school was actually my alma mater. One of my alma maters that I went to is right around, like, $60 to $70,000. And at the top end, the most expensive is $200,000. I would say the majority is right around $100 to $120,000 of investment that you would make for CRNA school. And it's a three-year commitment, and you cannot work through the vast majority of that. So you will be living on loans and savings, which is kind of a big stop for some people and also very scary, which is why we want to make sure early on they've thought about their finances before going into school.

[21:09] Michelle: That's heavy. That's a lot of heaviness. And like you said, you got to be committed. You got to be sure and prepared kind of for whatever could happen along the way because stuff happens. My sister Jennifer, was a guest on my program, and she was about a quarter of the way through her schooling for CRNA and just had some personal things happen where that caused her to leave that dream behind. And I just remember how devastated she was, first of all, because it was a dream and a goal of hers, and then kind of life happens, and it took her off course. She ended up going back to the ICU and becoming a flight nurse and was very successful at that, and now is program director for the flight company that she once flew for. But I know that's still something that it still hurts when she thinks about it. So, yeah, big commitment.

[22:22] Jenny: Yeah. I hate when I hear those kinds of stories, especially when it's just finances. Like, oh, you have to take this approach. And don't get me wrong, I don't think I did it perfectly myself, but I remember one of the biggest things you can do is make sure that you have a lot of your credit cards paid off, that you have good credit, that you have a backup plan. How are you going to live? How are you going to support yourself and make sure that you have an emergency stash set aside, whether that's a line of credit, whether that's actual cash. You have to make sure that you are planning for A, B, and C because like you said, life still happens. People get sick, family members get sick, dogs get sick, and cars break down. I mean, life is not going to stop because you go to CRNA school. And so you have to think, well, what's the worst-case scenario of things that could unfold, and how would I plan on getting through it? And again, being financially prepared is one of them. You don't want the financial stress on top of everything else you're dealing with in CRNA school. So thank you for sharing that story, and I'm sorry to hear that, but it sounds like she's made a success out of her career despite it. So that's the silver lining to that story.

[23:31] Michelle: I am a huge fan of my sister. She's an amazing person, an amazing nurse. And she's a pilot and she's one of those people that when she sets out to do something, she does it. And she's always been like that. I'm eleven years her senior. So watching her grow up and doing all these things and becoming so accomplished and then seeing how devastated she was when this dream wasn't going to come true, was really difficult. But she's made the best of it and she has a great life and I just have so much respect for her. So, students, when they're coming to you, what's the biggest misconception that students have about this specialty?

[24:21] Jenny: Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Misconception. Well, I think they think they have to be perfect in order to get accepted. I think they think they have to be a 4.0. They have to have all the certifications possible. They don't take a deep breath and accept the fact that they bring something very unique to the table. They are who they are and that is to be celebrated. Which is another thing we love to do, is these CRNA programs are not looking for perfection. They're looking for you. They're looking for what makes you stand out, what makes you who you are and how will you add value not only to this cohort but to this career path. So I think we have to remind students to not play the comparison game. Take a deep breath and enjoy where you are in your life and who you are and what you've done, and just find ways to highlight your experience and what you bring to the table. Don't try to be like everybody else. So I think that that tends to be a misconception. People try to play this catch-up game or I'm going to follow the leader kind of situation, and they can kind of lose sight of what really is going to bring them joy in this profession, which is being a unique individual who has something to be celebrated and whatever. Again, that background is.

[25:38] Michelle: Well, that's a good point. And it sounds so similar to getting into medical school. Would you say that there are some similarities?

[25:51] Jenny: Yeah, I'm sure the pressure to get into medical school is intense. And also people, again, do this comparison game. I think, unfortunately, there are pluses and minuses to social media, but I think it's so easy today to just focus on others and not yourself and just always desire what other people are posting and doing and making yourself kind of feel like I'm not enough. And that's really unfortunate. So if you're catching yourself doing that, if you're feeling like I'm not enough or I can't do this. You have to kind of think of yourself as a racehorse. They put blinders on racehorses for a reason. They do that so they can focus on the end result, which is crossing that finish line and not worrying about what's going on around them. Just focus, focus. And so I think whether you're a med student or a pre-CRNA, you have to focus on what you want to achieve and not worry about everything else going on around you. Pour into yourself, and naturally, you'll be able to pour into others. If you pour into yourself first, it's like you can't pour from an empty cup situation. So, yeah, I think it just is competitive. But if you take this journey day by day, week by week, month by month, I'll never forget when I was in CRNA school that I'd be like, okay, if you focus on the big picture and everything you have to do, it gets very overwhelming to the point where you feel like you can't breathe. You have this anxiety creeping up. But if you just take a deep breath and say, what do I have to do today? Then what do I have to do tomorrow? And then the next day and the next day, you could take it day by day, it does not seem so overwhelming. And little steps add up to big results, and so little baby steps go a long, long way.

[27:27] Michelle: Yeah. I love it. There's been so many comparisons about that. How do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? How do you climb a mountain one step at a time? And when you said, I have to focus just on today, of course, the big picture is always out there. But like you said, it's so incredibly overwhelming. And I will say there's a story, my breast cancer story. It was incredibly overwhelming to think about surgery, chemo, months of chemo. And I'd never had surgery before, and it was a big surgery. So I just started having this mantra, and it was Psalms 118, and it was, "This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it."  And that just became my mantra throughout the whole journey because it helped me focus on today. What is today going to be like? It really helped me stop thinking about the past. Why did I get breast cancer? It's like, well, that really wasn't important at that point because it was here and now I needed to treat it. So those kinds of things can really help you focus and hone in on the task at hand and really be present. 

[29:03] Jenny: I love that share. Thank you, Michelle. I'm grateful that got you through. So, that is a great takeaway point right there.

[29:12] Michelle: You got to do what you got to do, right?

[29:15] Jenny: That's right.

[29:17] Michelle: Well, how do I stand out as an applicant? How are they going to differentiate me from all the other applicants?

[29:25] Jenny: Yeah, this one's hard, because what I've been told by so many program faculty is that all these resumes look the same on paper because everyone's doing all the things. They have all the same requirements, they've had the same ICU experience, et cetera. And so the way I picture an application is like a bunch of polka dots. So bear with me. If you close your eyes and picture a bunch of polka dots, if you have one giant red dot in the center, you're not very diversified, so you want to try to have equal dots in different colors throughout your application. And so, for example, if you put all your weight on. Okay, I'm going to get all these certifications. I'm going to have Alphabet soup. Right. I'm going to do all these different things. But maybe your GPA, maybe that of a Cin chemistry from way back in the day, but you think you'll compensate for that by doing all these certifications? You're essentially making a big red, giant dot in the middle of your resume and not really filling up the dots that are lacking or the dots that are small. And so you want to try to focus on areas of weakness. And so if you have a C in chemistry, go take a chemistry course. Show them that you can get an A in chemistry that, you know you're targeting a weakness of yours that says a lot versus just continuously going after one thing only, that you're already strong in. Maybe your strong suit is that you have all these certifications. Well, where can you focus that is not strong? And I would go there. So, kind of building a well-rounded application. Another big takeaway is people always seek out different leadership roles and things of that nature, but maybe they just do it to check a box, right? Maybe they just shadow to check a box. I have to job shadow, so I'm going to do it just to check a box. That's really not going to do you any favors, because when they ask you about your job shadowing experience or they ask you about your volunteer experience, and if you're not lit up and excited to talk about it in a way that's meaningful, that way that has purpose and understanding, it's going to become very clear that it was not done out of desire. It was more done out of obligation, and it just doesn't have the same feel. Right. So pick any kind of volunteer or leadership experience that really serves a purpose for you internally, maybe. Again, I talked to this one ICU nurse who was worried about her volunteer experience, was that she donated food to a local food bank, and she was a gardener, an avid gardener, and she just loved the garden. So that's what she wanted to do, is donate her fresh produce to a local food bank. I think that's amazing. Clearly, she's passionate about gardening, and it lights her up to talk about it. I think that's perfect. She felt like she had to have something for the Red Cross, or she felt like she had to do a mission trip. And I'm like, no, no, you don't have to do all these things that you see other people doing. If it doesn't light you up, talk about what you do, that lights you up and why that is meaningful to you. Maybe you grew up and you didn't always have fresh fruits and vegetables because your parents couldn't afford it. And so now this is your way of giving back to the community at large. It's just whatever means a lot to you makes a big difference. Similarly, when you join committees, don't just join a committee to check a box, do some work on that committee, and be able to speak to that work. So I think those are the big takeaways as far as how to differentiate and stand out. So just make sure you're picking meaningful things to add to your resume that mean something to you.

[32:40] Michelle: I love it. Those are great examples of really being different and being well-rounded and speaking to what your passion is. And as you're describing, just checking boxes. It came to me as like, growing up with a lot of siblings. It's like when you do something to your sibling and your mom says, tell them you're sorry, right. And so you're just saying, I'm sorry because you're afraid of what's coming down the pike if you don't say you're sorry. Is there a key to getting into CRNA school? Is it multiple things? Talk to that.

[33:28] Jenny: Yeah. I think the biggest thing that you can do to set yourself up for success, if CRNA is the career path that you're interested in, is, number one, understanding this career path and what it means for you as an individual, meaning what is it about being a CRNA that is so exciting to you? Back to the common question, why CRNA? You should be able to answer that question and make it very personalized to your own interests. And what really gets you there, because the reason why I kind of come back to this as being the single most factor that's really going to push you to be successful is because when you're passionate about your why and why you're doing something for yourself, you're going to push through the hard times. If you don't find that passion or if you don't get lit up, if you don't get those goosebumps and you have some bad days, you're more than likely going to not want to push through. But if you're like, no, I got to do this, and here's my why. This is why I'm going to tough out these hard times, and this is why I'm going to face rejection and keep going. If you find that why, you'll be able to push through. And you guys, plenty of good people get rejected from crna school. It does not mean you're not capable or deserving of this career path. But the reality is they get so many qualified applications, they have to reject good ones every single day. And so that's why I'm passionate about helping nurses believe in themselves that this dream is definitely a reality as long as you kind of understand what it is you bring to the table. So I think that that's the big takeaway.

[35:01] Michelle: That's a great takeaway. And talking about rejection. So if you are rejected, is that the end of the line for you, or what's the next step?

[35:12] Jenny: I see that as a learning experience, as a stepping stone. That's what a rejection is. And I always tell my students that no doesn't mean never, it just means not yet. And so this is part of the growth mindset, work that I think is so important, to not see failure as an actual failure, but see failure as just a learning opportunity to make you successful later on. There is nobody in life who gets to the Super Bowl without plenty of failure. Right? As we just had the Super Bowl, they had to work really hard to get there. And that includes failing. And so, again, being told no is just an opportunity to say, how can I improve? How can I do better? What can I do differently next time? Like the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again is insanity. So what can you do differently? If you think you're going to reapply to CRNA school and not do anything in that year to grow, you're doing yourself a huge disservice. And so that is what I would recommend, if you've been rejected is to understand how you can improve. And even the people who tell me, but, Jenny, I've done everything right. I have the grades, I have the experience. I have the GRE. I have everything. Maybe it's you. Maybe your interview didn't go well. Maybe I had a student reach out to me and she was shocked. Like, my coworker got in. Jenny, he has a lower GPA, less ICU experience, and lower GRE. I don't understand. I'm just baffled. And I'm like, well, have you asked for any feedback? I mean, not all schools will give feedback, but the ones who do, that's gold. And she did reach out and got feedback. They thought she was cocky. That's what they told her in her interview. She wasn't going to be teachable. And she's like, what? That's not me at all. How would they ever think that about me? And so it just shows that even though that was not who she was, she displayed that unknowingly based on probably lack of self-awareness. And so she spent a year really focusing on that and trying to focus on being humble in her approach and how she answered things. And she got in the next year, but it was really hard for her to hear that. And I think the hardest kind of feedback you get from any kind of failure or setback is that maybe you are actually the problem. Maybe it's not what you're doing that you haven't done enough, but maybe it's you, and you have to be willing to kind of swallow that and really face yourself in the mirror. So I think that's kind of a pain point a lot of people face and are afraid to look inward for the.

[37:41] Michelle: You know, being a NICU nurse for a long time, I had the joy, I really enjoyed it, of being on many interview panels for new staff in the NICU. And just like, you know, on paper, they looked beautiful. They had all the experience, they had all the credentials. And then some people just don't interview well. And many of them came off, like you said, cocky or just kind of. What's the word? I don't know. They just thought it was, like a sure thing. And so it was kind of just like an afterthought. The interviewer. Some applicants came in wearing very little clothing. It's like, wow, what is going on? There is a lot of press out there on interview skills, right? And it's like, do you live under a rock? Have you not read any of these things? So I think exactly like you said, self-awareness. And I think not getting in can be crushing, too, because I'm going to venture to say that the personality that's going to be a CRNA is very achieved person, and they maybe are a bit of a perfectionist. And so when it doesn't happen, it can be really crushing. So it's good that you provide those interventions, really, that they can reflect on. And I want to talk for a second about, you recommended two books, and I made your bookstore on Bookshop.org for anybody that wants to see those. But one of them was Daniel Goleman's, Emotional Intelligence. And there's just a lot of talk on emotional intelligence right now. And I was thinking back to episode 14 when I interviewed CRNA Flo Shenke and when I was watching one of your YouTube videos, you were discussing emotional intelligence, and it was exactly what Flo had said. She said, you can be the best anesthesia provider in the world, but if you're a jerk, I don't want you. Right, exactly. And yeah, that has so much to do with it. But talk about why you recommended that book.

[40:22] Jenny: Yeah, kind of similar to what we were talking about as far as reflecting inward. And what's beautiful about growth, mindset and emotional intelligence work is it serves you in so many different aspects of your life. I was kind of forced myself to do this when I started CRNA School Prep Academy because I quickly became very overwhelmed with what I was embarking on doing. And one of the best things that really has come out of, again, starting a business and being kind of a mentor for so many is I've had a really deep dive into myself, and it's beautiful what can kind of come out of it, and it's a work in progress. It's always something you have to work towards. It doesn't come naturally, but emotional intelligence can, in this book, kind of really give you some insightful ways to start doing some self-assessments. And that's how it all starts, is just becoming aware of how you come across to others when you ask for things. For example, when you're in an operating room and you're in a critical case, how do you communicate with the surgical staff and the surgeon in a way that's effective, that gets things done? How do you delegate in a way that doesn't sound threatening or demanding? All of these things come in handy, even as an ICU nurse when you're running a code. And so emotional intelligence is something that can serve you in your career path, not just in your careers, but also in your personal life. How do you talk to your husband, your kids? A lot of it, again, is really insightful. One of the things that I really like about a growth mindset and emotional intelligence is not focusing on the achievement, focusing on the effort. You want to praise effort, not achievement. And I know I personally struggle with this because it's not how I was raised. When you win a trophy or you come in first place or you get an A you're like, yay, hey, woohoo, you did it. But what about when you get a C? But you worked so incredibly hard for that C. You should be proud of the effort you put in and say, okay, I still have room to grow here, but I'm proud of where I've gotten. I went from a C on my test to now I got a B-I didn't get an A, but that's okay. I made progress. And so I think that's where a lot of this book can really help the readers, is to try to get a handle on what that means to you as a person.

[42:34] Michelle: Well, it's definitely on my list to read, so thank you for suggesting it. And everything you said really just resonated. I think as a culture, we're very achievement-focused. We like to win, and that can really bite us in the butt in some ways, in some areas of our life. So thank you for that. So one of my questions has to do with 2023, all CRNA programs transitioned to a DNP degree. In your program, is there any focus on education regarding the DNP?

[43:23] Jenny: Yes, we do cover that. We have a scholarly writing course that we teach. We also have a DNP project workshop that we teach. And what I want us don't get too overwhelmed with that aspect. It's essentially the same program that it was before, meaning the anesthesia curriculum has not changed. They just tacked on this DNP project where you do research. And so again, we do help you kind of unwind that a little bit. However, I've been told so many times that getting so hyper-focused on that before you're even into CRNA school may just mean you're going to have to shift your thoughts completely. Until you truly understand what it is that anesthesia is or what you're going to be doing as a CRNA, it's hard to really pick a DNP project prior. But you should still be familiar with it and what it entails for you. And there's a really great free course that I'll mention here. It's through Coursera and it's taught by Stanford professors. It's called Writing in the Sciences. And again, it's free. So we recommend a lot of students to do this course, and even programs will tell their students to do this course before they matriculate into the program. But I don't think nursing school focuses on writing enough. And so what a lot of these programs have shared is that students are kind of struggling to do this DNP project because their writing skills are relatively underdeveloped. So that's a full resource for the listeners as well.

[44:51] Michelle: That's great. And I'd love to put that link in the show notes. And you're totally true in the ADN program, there was no writing at all, and then the BSN, there was a lot of writing, and I had no skills, so I had to learn really quick. What is some of the feedback that you're getting from your students?

[45:14] Jenny: Oh, my gosh. One of my favorite things is to celebrate with them. That's by far one of my favorite things about what we do when they get into CRNA school, we get to kind of relive that cloud nine experience. But as far as feedback goes, a lot of people will tell me they wish they found us sooner. That's probably a very common, recurring thing. They're like, oh, I wish I would have found you guys sooner. And like I spoke to, most people are not seeking out help until they're kind of already in the thick of it, and then they find us because they're actively searching on Google for solutions. But had they utilized us prior when they were just planning on this career path, they would have been so much further ahead and missed a lot of obstacles that ended up being in their way, that ended up being some setbacks. So I hear that a lot. Otherwise, I think people really give us a lot of feedback. They just like being part of the community. And one of the beauties of what we do and why I am so passionate about mentorship is because almost every single person we mentor will come back and say, Jenny, how can I help? I want to give back. This has been such a life-changing experience for me to have the support and guidance I needed to be successful. I want to do the same for others. And I don't know if you're familiar with the poem or not a poem. It's like just a little saying of the boy who walks the beach picking up starfish, but this boy's walking the beach, and one by one, he's putting starfish back into the ocean. There are thousands of them all that all washed up on high tide. And this old man walks the opposite way and starts chuckling, saying, boy, what are you doing? You can't save them all. And he just looks up, throws one in the ocean, says, yeah, but I saved that one. And that's kind of how I see our mentorship program there are thousands of nurses who want to pursue this career path, and all it takes is to make a difference in one person's life, to create gratitude, and to create a sense of I want to pay it forward. And so, in a way, my secret mission is I'm building an army of pay it forward CRNA's who want to give back to this profession and want to give back to other nurses. And so that's, at the end of the day, what really drives me to keep going.

[47:21] Michelle: Yeah. Again, mentorship, like, it's everything. And when we get what we need, we just want to pay it forward. So that's great. Hey, let's talk about your podcast, because is it true you have 155 episodes?

[47:39] Jenny: Yes. I have the gift of gab. Yeah, I did it because I was kind of a broken record on Facebook, and I am not much of a writer myself. I can speak way quicker than I could ever write. So, yes, I started the podcast hoping I could impact more people and spread the knowledge that was needed to, again, just be more impactful and reach more people. So that way, this is a successful career path. So, yes, I have enjoyed it. It's been a passion of love. So, yes, CRNA School Prep Academy, definitely dive in. There are tons and tons to pick from as far as episodes.

[48:20] Michelle: There were so many, and I listened to a few of them, and I'm like, wow. And your mentors are great, too. It's just such a great library of education. So I imagine your students get a lot of that. And then I saw that you also have a blog, and so I was checking that out, too. Really good.

[48:41] Jenny: Thank you. Yeah, we essentially take our podcast and transcribe it into a blog. We have a few extra blog episodes on there, but, yeah, we try to disperse information in any way possible.

[48:54] Michelle: Yeah, I would imagine anybody that googles CRNA like yours, is one of the first things that pop up because you have a very strong presence on social media. First of all, you have the CRNA School Prep Academy website. You have a YouTube, you have the Facebook group, you have an Instagram, and you have a LinkedIn and a podcast. And, yeah, you're just everywhere.

[49:22] Jenny: I'm just everywhere.

[49:23] Michelle: You're just everywhere. Talk for a second about, because I'm a big fan of professional organizations. The American Association of Nurse Anesthesiology.

[49:35] Jenny: Yes, that's our national association. I highly encourage, if this is a career path that you're interested in, to get very familiar with them. In fact,  an exciting announcement that I would love to just share is that they are actually launching an RN, kind of a subdivision of their membership, to, again, make this more inclusive. Back when I first started mentoring, I just felt like there were so many barriers to nurses finding this information, and they wanted to go to these conferences, they wanted to get involved and they couldn't because they didn't have an RN level available. Right. You had to either be a current, you had to have an AANA number, which means you have to be an accepted student or a CRNA. You're really doing the profession a huge disservice by not allowing a table or a seat at the table for these nurses who just want to get involved. And so that's exciting that they now are being more open-armed as far as allowing RN's to get involved with the AANA. Obviously, they are a national association, but they're just a wealth of resources and information to help you.

[50:37] Michelle: I'm glad that they're doing that now because that could only spark more passion and more activism and ultimately probably more CRNA's, right?

[50:49] Jenny: Yeah, it's a growing profession. We need more CRNA's There are, I think, about eight or nine new programs that are opening just in the next year or two. We are definitely expanding. So, yeah, we need to grow this profession. And ultimately, we're pushing into a lot of independent practice avenues to allow more access to anesthesia for rural communities. So, yeah, it's a really exciting time to become a CRNA. This profession is really just blossoming and blooming.

[51:19] Michelle: That's great. And I know, know I live in a rural community, and I was talking to Flo about this because when the CRNA's came to our institution, it was really new. We had anesthesiologists only, and there was a lot of pushback from the anesthesiology group, from the community. Like, they were taking out these full-page ads, the anesthesiologists saying, this is going to be so horrible for the community, and they're going to get worse care. And of course, all the research, even at that time, was proving them wrong, and it's continued to prove them wrong. So there was a big pushback and the CRNA group prevailed. And now it's like more people prefer CRNAs to give anesthesia. So it's just so funny how things come about. So, throughout your journey of being a CRNA, starting this school, is there something surprising that you've learned about yourself?

[52:32] Jenny: Surprising is that I would consider myself to be somewhat soft-spoken and definitely an introvert. But through this whole process, not only being a CRNA but even being a mentor for thousands. At this point, when I need to be, I can speak up and use my voice. And I think I remember in the beginning thinking, can I really do this? Can I really speak up and tell a surgeon no or tell an anesthesiologist no and hold my ground? Because even when you're in the ICU and you're doing physician rounds, maybe you have a disagreement. Maybe you want to advocate for your patient. Sometimes you have to understand how to tackle these challenging situations where you have to have a disagreement. And kind of the big key takeaway with any kind of situation like that is you just have to understand why, which is why in this profession, you will always be learning, and you should just understand why you feel a certain way. Why does a patient need that? And if you have the answer to why, you will always find support, even if they don't agree, you'll say, oh, okay, well, that's a good thought, but here is my thought, and here's why. And you can never really go wrong with that. So I think my big takeaway is just because you're shy like I'm shy. Just because you're an introvert, it doesn't mean that this is not the career path for you. You can find your voice when you need to. And, yeah, you don't have to be a people person or be able to eloquently speak in front of tons of people to be able to do this career path. But again, I think that a big takeaway for me, is the fact that I remember feeling intimidated often with, am I going to have enough of a backbone to stand up when the time is necessary? And you do, you find that why? And then you could stand on that.

[54:19] Michelle: So many celebrities, right, that say, great actors, great speakers that say, I'm an introvert, and I would have never, ever guessed that, because you're such a great speaker, you're so inspiring, you are such an activist, you are an advocate, and I think you have definitely. It appears that through your journey you have learned about yourself, that you can speak up and you can let your voice be heard, and it's happening.

[54:53] Jenny: Yeah. Thank you. Yes.

[54:55] Michelle: So I just recently started asking this question on the podcast, and so I will ask you, is there anyone that you recommend to be a guest on this podcast?

[55:07] Jenny: Oh, good question. Gosh, there's so many. But if you want to stick in the CRNA realm, I think Jeff Molter, 110%, could break down the business of anesthesia and really go into a lot of detail on that. Jeremy Stanley is a financial guru in the space, so those are two really good options. Natalie Presser, is with Thrivent financial. She does all of our coaching. Financially, she's another really great one. And then mean, I could probably keep going, but Richard Wilson, he's also a CRNA and he's a faculty member. So because of that experience, he has a really great perspective on what it takes to be a successful student in CRNA school.

[55:55] Michelle: Awesome. Okay, I'm going to ask you for some of their contact information. So thank you. Well, we talked about some of the places that we can find you, but let's just go through them again. Where can we find you?

[56:09] Jenny: Anything and everything that starts with CRNA School Prep Academy. So YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, you can find me in all the social media places just at CRNA School Prep Academy. You can also head over to our website at www, crnaschoolprepacademy.com. If you want to shoot me an email, you can just send it to: Hello@crnaschoolprepacademy.com. I will get it. We have a team that works hard to make sure that, again, we communicate back with everyone who reaches out.

[56:39] Michelle: You're everywhere like I said. So that's great. There are many ways that we can find you. And thank you, Jenny, for taking the time to have this conversation to tell us how we can be a better candidate to get into CRNA school and what's entailed. There's so much information and I just thank you for sharing it with our audience today.

[57:04] Jenny: Yeah, you're welcome, Michelle. It's been a pleasure. And just make things easier on our listeners, too. I have a 27-page guide, or 29. Now it's 29 pages that really walk you through all of these details. It's free. It's just a PDF guide I made to help you. So again, we can provide the link for that as well.

[57:22] Michelle: I certainly will put that in the show notes. That's a little bonus. And thank you so much.

[57:27] Jenny: Yep. Thank you.

[57:29] Michelle: Well, you know, at the end, Jenny, we do the five-minute snippet.

[57:33] Jenny: Let's go.

[57:34] Michelle: Are you ready? It's 5 minutes of fun. Okay, I'm going to put my timer on. All right. Would you rather win the lottery but have to spend it all in one day or triple your current salary forever?

[57:54] Jenny: Oh, triple my current salary forever, all day.

[57:58] Michelle: There you go. I'm with you. Is there a word you always struggle to spell correctly?

[58:06] Jenny: Does every word count? I am the worst speller. I never made it into one spelling bee's growing up. Oh, yeah. So I can't spell.

[58:19] Michelle: Okay. I always do the I before E, but all those little things. Okay, board games or card games. 

[58:32] Jenny: That one's hard. I'm into board games because we have kids and so that's kind of the phase that they're in right now. And so I love playing board games with the kids.

[58:39] Michelle: I have two grandkids, nine and almost seven, and they're really into board games. So much fun. Would you rather give up cursing forever or give up ice cream for twelve years?

[58:53] Jenny: Oh, I could definitely always give up cursing. In fact, I try my best not to because our little ears around the house will pick up on that. So I don't need to say another curse word my entire life. I'd be happy.

[59:06] Michelle: That's cool. Yeah. I didn't think you were a big curser. I had to curb my cursing when my three-year-old daughter was in the backseat of the car, she yelled out an expletive when a car came too close to me, so. Oh, boy. Okay. Is there an upcoming life event that you are excited about?

[59:29] Jenny: Yeah, I'm going to Vive, which is out in LA, Los Angeles, and it's going to host over 2000 hospital CEOs. We are sharing my work with Teach RN, which is another company that I actually am involved with that I run. But it's all about nurse mentorship, so I'm excited about the opportunity. Being a nurse at heart, I want so badly to help our community. I want to get through such this painful phase that we're in. So I'm excited about this opportunity to go to Vive just to share my passion for mentorship and hopefully find a solution to help nurses.

[01:00:10] Michelle: That sounds like a great conference. When is that?

[01:00:14] Jenny: It's February 25th through the 28th.

[01:00:18] Michelle: Too soon. Yeah, I was going to put the link in there, but looks like it's coming up pretty soon. Okay. Shaving or waxing?

[01:00:28] Jenny: I don't like doing either, but definitely not waxing. Oh, my gosh. No way. I don't have the pain tolerance for that.

[01:00:38] Michelle: Would you rather someone see all the photos on your phone or read all your text messages?

[01:00:45] Jenny: I don't really know if I really care about either. But I think the photos would be more meaningful. It's just a bunch of our kids stuff.

[01:00:54] Michelle: Yeah, photos are great. Kids, dogs, vacations. Right. Where would be the worst place to go into labor?

[01:01:04] Jenny: In your own home. My biggest fear always was like, am I going to make it there in time? Okay, a public place. If you were in a public place and you weren't close to a hospital, that would probably be, in my opinion, the worst place to go into labor.

[01:01:20] Michelle: Pretty bad. Yeah. At our hospital, we had a ton of circle-drive car deliveries, people just driving up. And here comes the baby.

[01:01:34] Jenny: Yeah. No, thank you. That's terrifying.

[01:01:37] Michelle: Okay, soup or salad?

[01:01:40] Jenny: Oh, soup.

[01:01:43] Michelle: This is soup weather right now. Yeah. Was there something that you asked for repeatedly as a child but were always told no?

[01:01:51] Jenny: A dog. But funny enough, I think I asked for four years straight. And on my 10th birthday, my parents gave me a dog. I named her princess. And then when I turned 20, I was in college at that point, and that Princess was with my parents still. So I got myself another dog for my 20th birthday and named him Prince.

[01:02:13] Michelle: Oh, my gosh.

[01:02:14] Jenny: I know.

[01:02:15] Michelle: That's great. Okay, last question. Would you rather only be able to listen to one song for the rest of your life or only be able to watch one movie for the rest of your life?

[01:02:29] Jenny: Oh, gosh, that one's really hard. I'd probably say one movie because music to me is. I feel like I use that daily. Where? Movies. Honestly, I don't watch that often.

[01:02:44] Michelle: Do you have a favorite movie or song? Yeah, movie.

[01:02:49] Jenny: No, unfortunately, I really don't because it's been embarrassing. I don't remember the last movie I saw. It's probably been years, probably a kid's movie, right? Yeah. Right. Started. Yeah. I don't make any time for TV at all. We had the Super Bowl recently, but I think I just watched the halftime and that was it.

[01:03:10] Michelle: Exactly. Great. Well, you did it. You got through the five-minute snippet. And I really appreciate it, Jenny, and I really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for bringing all your knowledge and sharing everything that you do as a CRNA  and to help other students fulfill their dream of being a CRNA.

[01:03:35] Jenny: Yeah. Thank you, Michelle. This has been my pleasure.

[01:03:38] Michelle: Well, have a great rest of your day, whatever you're doing.

[01:03:41] Jenny: Yeah, you as well. Happy day.

[01:03:44] Michelle: Yes. Thank you. Take care.