Founder and CEO of Advocates for Nurses, Maggie Ortiz, MSN, RN

[00:00] Michelle: For today's episode, I've got questions, and Maggie's got answers.

[00:06] Do you need a nurse advocate? Well, consider this your lucky day. Meet my guest, Maggie Ortiz.

[00:13] As founder and CEO of Advocates for Nurses, she provides guidance, education, and empowerment to nurses facing legal, regulatory, and professional challenges.

[00:25] Terrified of facing a Board of Registered Nursing investigation, Maggie's your insider.

[00:31] Equally terrified of being deposed.

[00:34] She literally wrote the book on it.

[00:37] Do you see where I'm going here?

[00:40] Maggie is dedicated to ensuring nurses have the resources and support they need to confidently protect their licenses.

[00:48] And that's what I would call a true advocate for nurses.

[00:54] In the five minute snippet, did she just diss Dallas?

[01:15] Good morning, Maggie. Welcome to the podcast.

[01:19] Maggie: How are you? How are you? Good morning. Good morning. Good morning.

[01:22] Michelle: I love your energy.

[01:24] I'm good. I'm in my closet, as you can see on camera. And we're not recording in video. I forgot to tell you that. But our listeners can't see that. But you see me all bundled up in my sweatshirt.

[01:35] It's really cold here this morning in central California, so we're just going to launch right into it. Maggie, you and I have actually known each other, I was thinking about this the other day, for two and a half years.

[01:52] And we met, and I totally passed up the opportunity to have you on as a guest almost three years ago. And, you know, all I can say is I'm a big,

[02:06] I don't know what the word for me is, but, you know, I'll say I'm older and I'm wiser, as we both are. And so maybe this is just perfect timing.

[02:17] Maggie: And I do believe that. I do believe it's part of the journey. I believe that we cross people's paths when we're supposed to.

[02:24] So that is kind of hard to believe that we've known each other for that long. And kudos to you that you've had this podcast and you've been podcasting for so long, and it's cold here.

[02:38] So I grew up in Nebraska, so when people from, you know, the north hear us now, like Southerners, and I feel at liberty to say, I live in Austin, Texas, now, to say that when 

[02:50] We say it's cold, they're like, stop it. But right to your point, I mean, it was like in the 20s here. It feels like 17. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

[03:00] I moved. I stayed in these parts for a reason. This is cold.

[03:06] Yeah.

[03:07] Michelle: We're big sissies, right? And it's only 31 degrees here this morning, so I know there's a lot of people that have it much worse. So I feel silly for complaining.

[03:19] But thank you again for coming on. And we're just going to start, you know, who is Maggie Ortiz? What's your story?

[03:26] Maggie: So who is Maggie? Who is Maggie? So Maggie is, I always think as nurses, we forget that we are people before we become a nurse. So I'm a mom, I'm a sister, I'm a daughter.

[03:38] I started out, you know, I left home at an early age. So I'm a huge proponent associate degree nursing. I thought I was going to join the military. I did ROTC.

[03:50] And then when they were like, hey, sign your child over, I was like, so I'm going to just bounce out and not do that.

[03:56] So I went to community college. I got my associate's degree first tested. I started the ICU. I did a nursing residency program in the ICU, which I'm a huge proponent of as well, because the more education that you can layer on is just a gift to you with good preceptors and mentors around you to help you with your education.

[04:16] Moved around. I did the ER, I did pre-OP, I did PACU, I did ENDO, I did IR, I did interventional cardiology, radiology, electrophysiology, a lot of procedural areas.

[04:30] I went on to get my bachelor's and then my master's degree. In my thesis, I created a tool that anyone could use in a procedural area if an RN was going to be used to sedate.

[04:43] Because I was finding as I was moving around in these areas that most sedation nurses know were oftentimes placed in high risk places where, you know, cases that we should not have any part of.

[04:55] So it's seven questions where if the person says yes to any of them, it bounces them over for anesthesia to evaluate them and to just make sure that they are safe for the RN to sedate.

[05:07] If it is, then it gets bounced back to the RN and the RN can sedate.

[05:14] I did spend some time and what brings me to advocates for nurses at a board of nursing where I went to national training and I learned how to investigate. I learned how I had to learn the rules and regulations.

[05:27] And to me, unlike most of us, when we're going to nursing school, we're just strolling.

[05:32] Especially early on when we're in school.

[05:35] The only things that we, I think, really retain or remember about the rules and regulations are as they pertain to the test. Like, what. What do I have to remember for the test?

[05:45] And because we don't really understand that we practice under three types of law until it's too late. I became very intimate with that being at the board. I then crossed over to be a civil expert and then administrative expert, creating advocates for nurses, because I do not feel like nurses understand fully the rules and regulations that dictate our professional license until it's way too late.

[06:12] So Maggie is now someone who's pursuing law school at 52, almost gonna be 52, because I do feel very passionate about what we do.

[06:22] And it's not right now necessarily to just represent nurses. I think it'll be far larger than that. And anyone who's been in nursing, where you started your journey is most certainly not where you ended.

[06:33] So I'm just starting the process of pursuing law school. I hope not to have to stay in too long to represent nurses. You know, that's not the goal, to move away from that, where we just culture plays more into that.

[06:47] But I got way long winded. I'm very passionate about, you know, what we do, and I just think that we don't oftentimes have the tools when we're under investigation. And it.

[06:57] And it does level on earth.

[06:59] Michelle: Well, I absolutely love that you prefaced all that with you are not only a nurse, but you're a person. You're a sister, a mother, a daughter. And I love that because I think as nurses, we get really, really tied up into the nurse identity.

[07:17] And I certainly did, and my listeners have heard me say that many times that I've struggled with that after retirement.

[07:24] So you're doing a lot. I didn't know the part about going to law school. I think that's so cool. And I interviewed Your Nurse Lawyer, Irnise Williams, on this show.

[07:36] She was amazing. A nurse and also a lawyer. And I mean, I think it's perfect for anybody that's representing nurses, because who knows the nurse's life better than a nurse, right?

[07:48] Maggie: No one. No, no, no, exactly. I follow Irnise. 

[07:53] Michelle: Yeah. So you are the CEO and founder of Advocates for Nurses, and why do nurses need an advocate, Maggie?

[08:01] Maggie: So kind of like along the same lines as why a patient needs an advocate. When a nurse comes to me, they oftentimes don't even understand I'm under investigation. And what does that even mean?

[08:12] So you need an advocate to help provide you with the education and knowledge, the support to go through that process. Because it's oftentimes it's not just about the education I'm going to provide you, it's the support.

[08:26] One of the number one reasons and just a trigger warning here around mental health, just so listeners know the a nurse will may attempt to take their life is when they get a Board of Nursing complaint, it can be one of the most crippling things.

[08:43] And then just think about that. It's no different than imagine you get diagnosed with cancer or diabetes or you, you don't necessarily have that knowledge. I have thyroid disease. Right.

[08:55] I'm a critical care nurse. I can save your life. But there's a lot of nuances with the endocrine system that you wouldn't even begin to understand. And so I had to introduce myself to some education.

[09:06] And so that's why you need an advocate. You don't oftentimes understand the process. It's just horribly overwhelming. And it can be two to three years of your life.

[09:18] Michelle: Yeah, I really like that you touched on the mental health aspect because I can imagine being investigated by the Board of Registered Nursing.

[09:29] That that's gotta be first of all, just terrifying. And nurses don't have a background in law, so they see the worst coming. Right. And they need somebody that's really familiar with the law, with the rules, the regulations to represent them.

[09:49] So why do you think nurses aren't more aware of the rules and regulations and governing bodies?

[09:57] Maggie: A great question. As a little disclaimer, I never represent a nurse. I'm not a lawyer. I never give legal advice. I'm just a nurse.

[10:06] I provide, just like you said, advocacy, education, resources to a nurse, a legal team as like a legal nurse consultant. Depending on the capacity that I'm retained, if the attorney retains me, then it's, you know, as an expert.

[10:21] If the nurse retains me, it's as an advocate. So why do I think that a nurse or nurses don't know well myself. And her name is escaping me, Taylor.

[10:35] She does Rise and Shine. Her and I were talking about this and so I just, you know, reminded her as well that we do love. We do. Now, depending on the state that you live in, Texas requires jurisprudence for every single nurse we're in and every.

[10:49] Not just nurse, but if you hold a professional license. Now, not every state requires that they require us to have the six Hour CE with endorsement, and then every third cycle, we have to take the three hour CE course.

[11:05] Now, not every state requires that. And what is jurisprudence for all intents and purposes, it's basically the intersection of your license and the law. And it kind of just like breaks it down into bits and pieces.

[11:20] Now, if you go to school in Texas, it's woven into your nursing education. Now, I don't necessarily remember that I went to school in Nebraska. I graduated. My dad was in the military.

[11:32] That's where I ended up going to nursing school. So I don't necessarily remember that. But I do know when I came to Texas, that was something I had to do.

[11:39] And then when I was at the Board of Nursing, I had to sit through jurisprudence as well as an investigator when I was first there. But back to your original question, and kind of what I touched on originally is that I do think that we're drowning in medical terminology and care plans, and in our mind we're just thinking, I'm not a criminal, so what do I need to reproduce for the NCLEX?

[12:03] That's the intimidating test, or, you know, back it up. I'm not even to the NCLEX yet. I'm in school. And what do I need to know for the exam? Because I'm drowning in all these other classes and I'm not a criminal.

[12:17] I'm not going to do anything wrong. So I just need to worry about like all those bones in the ear and oh my gosh, stop it. All those muscles. Holy cow.

[12:27] So I don't think that the schools. I think that there's responsibility. And I talk about this with, you know, academia, with organizations. I think that there needs to be some onus on organizations as well to develop that out a little bit more, especially in lieu of we're seeing nurses being criminally charged, more so in the media, you know, than ever.

[12:50] And to your point, you know, that lack of education is going to further, you know, push us into not enough nurses, which I won't even touch on that. But I think that the lack of education comes down to, you know, there's not enough time in school, you know, we're drowning other stuff.

[13:08] I mean, that's just some of my opinion. But I mean, what do you think? What's your experience? I'd love to hear that.

[13:16] Michelle: Yeah. Thank you. I think, as you alluded to in the beginning, is that we don't think of ourselves as criminals, so why should we need to know about the law?

[13:29] And I think it could be just as simple as that. And also, I went to nursing school a very long time ago, so in the early 1980s.

[13:42] And I know some of our listeners probably weren't even born yet. But, you know, we didn't talk about that. There was no talk about rules and regulations as far as protecting your license.

[13:57] And in fact, there was a big misconception back then, and I think it's probably still going on now, and you can tell me this is that we believed as nurses that if we made a mistake and we had to go to court, that our institution would back us all the way and have our backs.

[14:20] Why do we think that? Is that still something that nurses think? And, you know, why do you think that is, in your opinion?

[14:28] Maggie: So that's a great question. And again, not a lawyer. Never legal advice. So now you're touching on civil litigation. You're talking about medical malpractice. So now we just branched over. Because sometimes I think that we do get confused.

[14:40] And yes and no. Is the organization going to protect you? And I talk about this in my charting courses. They will you to a certain degree. You are covered under what's called respondent superior.

[14:53] And that just is a Latin word that means "let the master reign." You are covered under their professional liability insurance. Right.

[15:03] So if it comes down to this is when it gets tricky, and I tell nurses, you absolutely should have your own professional liability insurance. Yes, you are going to be an extension of the organization.

[15:14] Is it in their best interest to, to put you under the bus? It's really not. But I'm going to go back to where it gets tricky. It now comes down to you are the one that caused the error.

[15:25] You are the reason why. And now it's the organization who is cutting that attorney's check.

[15:32] And an attorney that I had on December for my subscribers talked about this because he was a defense attorney with a hospital organization. And it just comes down to

[15:44] their duty to tell you is, my fiduciary duty to you is I work for the hospital to tell you that it's looking like it's you that did some stuff.

[15:52] And I get my check cut from the organization. So you, you might want to invest in your own legal representation. So this is when I hear, when I hear other nurses talking about, oh, they're going to come after us.

[16:05] You know, they're not. Now are they going to know you have professional liability insurance? If there's a medical malpractice case. And I know we're covering a lot of ground, but let me just blow people's mind right here.

[16:19] You are 98% more likely to stand in front of a Board of Nursing than you are in this, this civil litigation than this medical malpractice arena. And so how do I know that?

[16:29] Because the, when I spoke to the ANA attorney, Edie Boss, you know, she told that and I'm feverly writing it down, I was like, oh, can I quote that? She's, says that's something that's researchable and if that's being, you know, misquoted, please, by all means.

[16:43] But so do you see where that can get why you should have your own professional liability insurance? Because now you're terminated. Now let's work this out. You got terminated by the organization.

[16:56] There's no civil litigation. Let's just say there's no medical malpractice because you're 98% more likely to stand in front of the Board of Nursing. They terminated you. You don't have a job.

[17:05] You reported to the Board of Nursing. Now who's representing you? And now where are you going to get that money? You see where I mean, it's like having, you know, car insurance, having medical insurance.

[17:16] You're going to have a deductible. Are there going to be in network and out of network? Yes. I'm not going to say that it's the end all to be all.

[17:24] And by all means, you need to make sure you do diligent. You do your own due diligence and always start. Because another question that I always get asked, like who, like who offers it?

[17:34] Start with your own home insurance and your own car car insurance. They want your business, I promise you. And you could get a discount and just say, do you offer professional liability insurance for nurses?

[17:48] And number two, I'm going to give you a gift takeaway is that you need to ask.

[17:54] I'm an RN. I'm not a nurse practitioner. Nurse practitioners, MD.

[18:00] If there's civil litigation now, I'm going to move a little bit over to civil litigation. But even the Board of Nursing, if you need an expert, that expert that's going to be giving the opinion on what you did or did not do can be anywhere from, you know, $250 to $900 an hour.

[18:20] And if your insurance company, the insurance company that you don't select, underwrites to pay that fee. So the question you need to ask is, do you underwrite. I would ask for an RN if I would be involved in any kind of case that would give their opinion in my same or similar circumstance.

[18:42] Does that make sense, Michelle?

[18:45] Michelle: Yes. Thank you so much for that clarification and for all those tips, too. And so what I'm understanding from what you said is that the being investigated by the Board of Registered Nursing is, it could be maybe a little more serious than going to court under your hospital's umbrella.

[19:08] And I know you worked for the Board so what's one of the first things a nurse should do when they find out they're getting investigated by the Board of Registered Nursing?

[19:19] Maggie: Sure.

[19:20] So just so we I don't forget to unpack this as well. You do have rights. And this is why I wrote the book Help. I'm a nurse, I'm being Deposed  because when there's civil litigation, you gotta reach out to a lawyer.

[19:34] I can't talk to you. That's a whole nother animal. But you do have rights and I spell it out in that book. And you need to make sure you're getting with the legal team and then your own legal team because you're allowed to look at the medical record.

[19:47] There's a whole bunch of other things, but that civil litigation, if you are found negligent, especially even if you, if there's any gross negligence, it can cross over to the Board of Nursing.

[19:56] And we're going to talk about that in a minute.

[19:59] But you just have to make sure that you do understand that there's different types of litigation. And even if, let's just say the lawyer from the hospital reaches out to you and said, hey, so you're going to be deposed in a couple weeks.

[20:13] There's a case, you're not going to panic, right? You have rights. You're going to make sure that you are going down there, you're following the policy and everything and that you're not opening up the medical record.

[20:26] I just want to drop some of this stuff in there because what have I seen? And we're going to branch over to when a nurse gets reported to a board of nursing, like they violated HIPAA or they did something that they're not supposed to.

[20:36] So great question. What should a nurse do? I actually was just working on my YouTube series with this and then a nurse just reached out to me because I did just a brief little one on TikTok, and she was just like, wait, wait, wait, I got five.

[20:51] Where was three and four? So you don't ever handle a complaint alone. You always get legal representation. You can always reach out to me. One of the first things I'm going to ask you is, do you have professional liability insurance?

[21:04] There's no judgment ever. I'm never judging, but we're just going to work through that. And if you don't, that's okay. There's no problem. But you have rights.

[21:14] You need to understand the process. So one of the first things that I tell a nurse is, have you or have you not watched the video Under An Investigation by the national counselor, state boards, or nursing, which gives every state direction.

[21:27] So if you haven't, then that's probably a good start there.

[21:32] So you need to make sure that you're retaining legal counsel. You make sure that you.

[21:39] Ideally, you're not speaking to the Board by yourself. You shouldn't be speaking to an investigator without your legal representation.

[21:45] Michelle: Yeah. And again, I love how you make the distinction. You know, I'm not a lawyer, but you know what nurses are going to need in terms of support, in terms of knowing their rights.

[21:57] And that's where your services are really crucial. So thanks for talking about that. I watched your interview with Radonda Vaught, which was obviously a very high profile case. Was there anything about that case that surprised you that you want to comment on?

[22:16] Maggie: Yeah, And I never begrudge anyone their opinion. I have my own opinion, but I also almost have every piece of evidence.

[22:23] So what surprised me is that they criminally charged her. What surprised me was that the Tennessee Board of Nursing didn't move against her license initially. What surprised me is that, like, there are things that don't come to fruition during her case and that I feel like part of that is that her attorney doesn't reach out to maybe even a patient safety expert from the Joint Commission or because there were clear violations from that are written by the CMS.

[22:53] I'm not making that up. I was a prior investigator. I've been an expert. Part of my responsibility. Had I been retained as the expert, which if you. A lot of listeners.

[23:04] I don't know if you realize that Radonda.

[23:08] And tell me if you understand this, you understand that Radonda did not have an expert nurse retained on her side. Correct.

[23:17] Do you understand why? That's right, she didn't. Do you understand why is that is? Because as an expert. So let's move aside. Just down a rabbit hole for just a second.

[23:28] Anytime that you're calling your nurse yourself a nurse, whether that's a nurse expert or not, you're always looking. You're doing everything that we do. Unbiased codes of ethics. So when you look at a case, you're just looking at it unbiasedly.

[23:42] There were deviations from the standard of care.

[23:45] I'm not going to sit here and tell you she should have stood in front of the Board of Nursing. Not criminally. They should have written the family a check.

[23:51] Civilly, yes, but not criminally.

[23:55] I don't think that people realize when there are deviations from the standard of care or you deviate from the standard of care. And I'm going to go back to what we're talking about, the professional liability insurance.

[24:04] I could not take the case as an expert because there were deviations from the standard of care. So if I had been retained by Radonda's lawyer, I would have been a gift to the plaintiff.

[24:15] Do you understand that?

[24:16] Michelle: Yeah.

[24:17] Maggie: Because you cannot lie when you get on the stand. Because I would have been asked by both the plaintiffs. So the family's attorney asking me questions, and there were deviations from the standard of care.

[24:30] No attorney wants me to go onto record to say that. Right. So I would have been a gift to the other side. Therefore, she didn't have an expert nurse who could opine 

[24:43] Or give their opinion on her conduct. But what she could have had were experts as it pertains to things like intersecting two software systems. The Institute of Safe Medical.

[24:57] I mean, there could have been other entities that could have identified not having a scanner down in radiology. She'd been a nurse for two and a half years. She's precepting someone.

[25:06] I mean, where to begin?

[25:09] You know what I mean? So a lot of those things, you know, surprise me. And then the other thing that I think that surprised me was just a lot of the league, because I have made a crossover about a decade over into legal nursing.

[25:28] That means various different things. That's a whole from an investigator to a legal nurse, consultant to an expert. So when you get into these algorithms, just call them, you get exposed to different things.

[25:39] Right. And so as a legal nurse, one of the hot cases, of course, was this one. But legal nurses have different perspectives than the bedside nurse. Right? Because they have knowledge.

[25:50] RNJDs have different knowledge. I mean, even I believe Irnise was speaking about her opinion. And I mean, on LinkedIn. Right. She has her opinion and she thinks differently than I do.

[26:02] I do believe about, you know, Radonda's case. And I never begrudge her. She's a nurse attorney. I think that there were a lot of mitigating circumstances in my opinion and I don't think that she should have been charged with, with reckless homicide of an impaired adult knowing all the mitigating circumstances and what she did.

[26:21] Asks for a scanner, goes immediately into the room. When she figures out what's going, what's happening, all those things they show prudency. But there's too many failures her in her environment to hang to.

[26:33] To literally put hang one person. I mean it was a lot for me. And then getting to know her, people made assumptions about her as well. And you don't realize it 

[26:43] Until you start talking to her. And she comes to nursing older you know, she's not like 20. So people in her environment make assumptions about her putting in charge, letting her precept because just by visually she appears to be older than the younger nurse.

[27:03] Does that make sense? So there's just too many things that are just layered that are hard for me to look away from.

[27:10] Michelle: Yeah, I get you, Maggie. And I, without knowing anything about the case at first, when I heard about it, I feel the way that you did. I'm not an expert at all, but I just feel like there had to be some mitigating circumstances in this case and it'll be interesting to see what happens.

[27:31] And I feel like Radonda's case kind of sent shockwaves through the whole nursing profession.

[27:39] And did you find that be to be true? Did you have nurses coming to you with concerns, talk about that?

[27:47] Maggie: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[27:50] Because I don't think that people, even myself realized until I made that crossover into the Board of Nursing, that the Board is there and again, different type of law is there to protect the public.

[28:04] But then when I crossed over, so my second crossover is to a civil expert. And then things start really dawning on me. Right. And now I've been walking in this world for a decade at that point.

[28:16] Right. She was charged in '23. So then, you know, I'm like eight years into walking around into this, you know, quote unquote, my legal journey. Nurses were reaching out to me because I already knew that that was a possibility, but that's only because of my crossovers.

[28:36] So I knew that that was a reality.

[28:39] And when you're in the legal, like I already said, I was already in a different algorithm, per se. So I had been exposed. But I don't think that the general nurse 

[28:49] Or the general public had a really robust idea because in their mind, they're like, oh, it's just nurses harming patients. 

[28:59] It's really not. And I realized that when I got a real good look at that when I was at the Board of Nursing, and I was like, wait, what?

[29:08] We're not being extended due process. That was really worrisome to me. I know. I got off.

[29:16] Michelle: No, hey, I love it. I love your passion. Can definitely see that comes through and in your knowledge and your expertise.

[29:25] And I remember when that case came out, it was just so shocking. And on all the nursing, you know, sites, nurses were like, man, it's a scary environment out there.

[29:36] You know, they're coming for us. And, you know, if you make a mistake, this is what's in store for you. And it was really sad to see.

[29:44] Maggie: That it's the first thing that nurses ask me.

[29:47] I apologize. I didn't mean to interrupt.

[29:50] It's one of the things that nurses ask me is, am I going to lose my license? Am I going to lose my license? They're not.

[29:59] I'm not necessarily giving them, you know, any necessary knowledge. I'm just creating a safe space. And all I can say is, given my background, I'm not a lawyer.

[30:09] Being an investigator, helping nurses and legal teams and even go into a discipline matrix which we all have access to, and we're, quote, unquote, all supposed to know, even given what a nurse would tell me, you know, look at that.

[30:21] You know, let's look at the violation. It doesn't appear to rise to revocation of a license, so. Or revoking or removing the license. So oftentimes it's just that. It's just unpacking that because it's like that whole, I got cancer, I have diabetes, I have, you know, something terminal.

[30:36] You know what I mean? And then I'm like, okay, you don't. Let's put that aside. And again, I don't have. And I tell nurses, I don't have the answer.

[30:45] I don't have a magic ball. I don't know. If you don't respond to the Board 100%, you're going to get revoked. If you don't comply. But more often than not, the Board is going to work with you unless you're out.

[30:58] If you showed up and you intentionally harmed patients, if you're diverting drugs, and again, if you are diverting drugs, you need help, there's still help. There's hope for you.

[31:08] There's peer assistance. Pick up the phone, call the peer assistance now, get yourself the help that you need, you know, and then you can come back at a later date.

[31:17] There's nothing wrong with you asking for help. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be mean the revocation of your license, if it becomes diversion, as opposed to peer assistance, where they're no longer asking you, they're telling you, which does get different, that could lead to a suspension or possibly revocation of your license.

[31:39] You know, that's oftentimes rare when it is related to substance use disorder. Disorder. But diversion can also be a DUI or a PI

[31:49] A DUI or a personal intoxication. If any of those rise to criminal, that does lead to the revocation of the license, just by the letter of the law.

[31:59] Normally you have to come back within five years. But I tell a nurse, you can always ask after a year, if you don't ask, it's always no.

[32:06] So I always encourage a nurse. You know, those are the things that we talk about when a nurse reaches out to me.

[32:14] Michelle: Yeah. Part of me wants to believe that the Board of Registered Nursing is not an adversary, that they're not out to get nurses, that they're actually on our side.

[32:24] And there's nobody better to answer that question than yourself.

[32:30] And so are they on our side as nurses, or are they, you know, looking for problems?

[32:37] Maggie: So I wouldn't necessarily say that they're looking for problems, but if a problem comes to them, they're not going to look away.

[32:44] So their duty is to protect the public. Their mission, actually, let's call it what it is, whether it's a traditional Board of Nursing like I have, whether you're under Health and Human Services, Department of Health, alj, whatever, whomever is giving you the privilege to practice their duty, their mission is to the public.

[33:03] It is not to us.

[33:04] So, no. I don't know who really, outside of me and you. I mean, I don't really know who the entity is there for us, but it's not them.

[33:14] That's not even what their mission. So when an organization is created, they have a mission. They have things that they have to start working, you know, goals. But that's not why that was put into place that's not their mission.

[33:31] And I don't think that that really, for me, and I'm speaking for me, I don't think that really sunk in until I was like, within that agency. And then I was like, well, that's because you just don't realize it.

[33:44] I understand, right, that we do need to make sure. Because none of us want to be taken care of by someone who's not competent or has poor intentions towards us or diverting a drug or you know what I mean?

[33:58] And we do need some form of accountability. We need rules. We need, you know, we do need those things. And I'm going to tell you what an administrative lawyer from D.C.

[34:07] told me. It is the structure of way, the way administrative law is just written in the United States. It gives the Board, the agency, a lot of power with very little oversight and.

[34:19] Or no oversight. And that's why I am here. Because there really is no process in most states to even have a case opened up. And I don't want to even go down a whole nother rabbit hole.

[34:31] But folks, that's why I'm pursuing law school. So I'm gonna go back to all the other. You have professional liability insurance. You don't talk to a Board by yourself.

[34:42] You have legal representation. You reach out to me because what am I gonna help you do alongside. Even with your attorney, I'm gonna help you with the education. I have like 20 handouts.

[34:53] Because when your attorney is billing you by the 15 minute increment and you maybe not understand the process and you're like, I don't even understand what, what is an agreed order.

[35:03] Well, I don't even understand. I do. I even have my file. I don't even know what I'm. So those are things that are in the handout, there's the video. Maggie talked about this.

[35:13] Hold on. It's in the library. I'm gonna go get it. And it's 2am Oftentimes, you and I both know the more that you under. You know and you understand it just decreases your anxiety.

[35:23] You understand the process. You know it's going to be two to three years. So your expectation of them responding back to you in five minutes, I'm like, get that out of your head.

[35:32] And the first thing that I tell a nurse is I tell them, if I know you've seen Law and Order, you. You get that out of your head right now.

[35:39] That's not real. And all I can do. And a lawyer can help you do is arm you with some tools. And any nurse I've ever helped will tell you, I say this, that's going to help you stand in front of the animal we're going to call the entity that's giving you the privilege to practice.

[35:53] And the more that you know when you understand about your opponent, the better you're going to be able to help equip yourself.

[36:01] You know, anything even to, like, say, not to say. Because everything that you say can and will be used against you. It is you are guilty and then you have to prove your innocence, unlike civil criminal.

[36:14] Like, that was the eye opener to me. I'm like, whoa, pump the brakes here. That's alarming to me. That's very alarming. Like, what's an example, Michelle? You get a letter Saturday and it says "on or about" 

[36:26] And I was the investigator writing this from the complaint. Let's just say that was sent from your job. Honor about this date, while employed at Sunnyvale Hospital, you did xyz.

[36:40] and you failed to do this cause patient harm. I want your response within 30 days. Now, that was a year ago.

[36:49] Now, I want you to give you. And it's just initials of a patient. Now I want you to give me your response within 30 days about that allegation that could cost you your career.

[36:59] So go ahead. I'll wait. Stop it. We're not doing that, folks. No, no, no, no. You have rights. So you need to make sure you got legal representation. And you're like, thanks for that letter.

[37:11] Appreciate you so much. I'm going to fully comply. I'm going to watch that video, I'm going to know my rights, and I'm going to need my full and complete file.

[37:20] Whatever you're using, video, all the words, whatever it is, do not leave nothing unturned. Because if you don't think I've ever heard things like alluded to what they saw on video and the nurse was like, well, how could they know that?

[37:32] I said, there's video. And they're like, what do you mean there's video? I said there's video. And they're like, what do you mean there's video? And I said, there's video.

[37:39] I don't want to scare people. You know, I don't want to scare people. That's not what any of this is intended. And I know I'm a lie. I know sometimes I wish I didn't have a mirror.

[37:47] No. Sometimes this knowledge is a lie. It is. And I try and I try not to give too much and not, you know, I mean, to layer it on.

[37:57] I want to give as much as I can. So a nurse never ends there. But I also don't want to scare people because you got to show up to your job.

[38:06] Michelle: Yeah. And I'm not scared. You're not scaring me. In fact, you're. What you're imparting is a sense of comfort because the person who is scared is. The person is the nurse that's coming to you that got the deposition and got this.

[38:20] Yeah. Act against them. And they are completely terrified.

[38:25] And, you know, I've been there, Maggie, and I've talked about this on this podcast. I got one deposition in my 36 year career. And that was enough. That was enough.

[38:37] And it was back before the days of electronic medical records. So I was presented with the chart and I got to go through pages and pages of other people's handwriting as well as my own, which looked like chicken scratch.

[38:54] So I immediately improved it from there. Because when the lawyer is asking you to read your documentation.

[39:00] Maggie: Oh, Michelle, let me.

[39:03] Hold on, let me pump the brakes here. Because remember when I talked about I'm an unbiased expert, you didn't do me any gifts as your expert. You did me no gifts because I can't even read what you wrote and I can't make it up.

[39:14] So that's the other thing I want you guys to take away right now from what Michelle is saying. There will be what I call a wolf nurse. And I call that person a wolf nurse.

[39:21] And that's going to be me. And have I seen where the nurse wrote something? The house supervisor, the chart nurse, where I did have to come back and say there's no nursing negligence.

[39:32] Yes, yes. So say that again. Michelle, you didn't do yourself nor the wolf nurse any expert help at all.

[39:40] Michelle: I didn't. I didn't. And it was horrible. And it was extremely embarrassing as a professional to sit there and have to decipher, you know, my handwriting.

[39:52] So things obviously have gotten better in terms of documentation.

[39:56] Maggie: Well, there are some places that scary handwriting. There's still plenty of places that do pen on paper. Plenty of places. Plenty. And so I tell them this, Michelle. I tell them this.

[40:09] Please believe me when I tell you. Or they start pre-document ahead of time.

[40:15] Say that again. I said it.

[40:17] Michelle: Yes, pre-charging happens.

[40:21] Yes, I know, I know, girl, I feel you. Okay, well, I want to talk about some of the resources that you offer nurses. And you alluded to some of those.

[40:32] But give me kind of a rundown. If somebody comes to you, what can they expect to. To get from you?

[40:38] Maggie: Yes, a lot of love. A lot of love. A lot of nurse love, tough love, but depending on what they need. Is it always a nurse under investigation? It is not.

[40:46] I've had nurses reach out to me. They are being written up. They are being terminated. It doesn't matter. Whatever it is, I don't want you to be alone. So it doesn't matter what you're struggling through.

[40:58] You can book time on my calendar. It's $50 for 30 minutes. It's nothing crazy. And then whatever it is that you're going through, if you're under investigation, you and your legal team can reach out to me.

[41:09] You can reach out to me and book time with me. I offer charting courses like I talked about, because, like I alluded to, it will come down to the words that you do or do not write.

[41:20] And so I've taken the time to do one for all nurses and then one for surgical services and incorporating, like, SCIP measures. SCIP measures are core measures in surgical areas, and then for the basic one, just general core measures.

[41:35] We all know them. Door to balloon. You're doing an EKG, blood cultures before you give an antibiotic, stroke. We all know these. And I read, like, definitions of malpractice, gross negligence.

[41:50] Negligence and the stuff that we talked about, because I think that is very pertinent, because I can help you when you get the letter, but if you did not write the words, then, then we're done here.

[42:01] I have those. So you do get a CE for those, or each an hour. They're online.

[42:06] I offer nurses a transition to legal nursing course online. It's $500. It's not tens of thousands of dollars. And it's just a basic. How can you, you know, right now get on over and become a legal nurse?

[42:22] Because it's not unique to me. I didn't take any of these, you know, traditional trainings. You should not be spending tens of thousands of dollars. It's four hours, five handouts.

[42:33] The course that each hour is just like the nuts and bolts to get you working the hands. Handouts are the boring stuff that if you want to, like, take the test and you want to be, you know, like for the ALNC

[42:45] By all means. But that's, like, the more not so fun, digestible stuff that I break down over six months with two different books. It's all under $50 that if you choose to do that, how do you set up a business?

[42:59] How do you network all in the four hours to get you working today? How do I write a report, how do I do some of these stuff?

[43:07] I think mentoring, coaching, it just depends. You know, I've had CNOs reach out to me. You know, I offer them the charting course. The nurses took the charting course. And then I did a live course question and answer session and we went over just some basic things that they were experiencing within their organization.

[43:23] So I always try to just meet a nurse and, or the organization with it where they are. What's the goal? That I never want you to stand in any court of law.

[43:32] Michelle: That's fantastic. And that's such a great value for everything that you offer. So thanks for talking about that. And I'll put all your links in the show notes for anybody that wants to get your services.

[43:45] And I wanted to, I didn't know this, that you can also talk to nurses about  what's going on in their jobs. And I have an example for you.

[43:56] This is something that happened to me very early in my career as a 21 year old new nurse.

[44:02] We had a manager in our unit that was, whenever we called in sick, this manager would call us at home and want to know everything about what's going on with us.

[44:14] You know, if we had a fever, what was our fever? How long have we had the fever? If we had the stomach flu, was it vomiting, was it diarrhea, was it both?

[44:25] You know, did we have to go to the doctor? Like every day that we called in sick, this person would do this. And I went through months of this and I was talking to my dad one day about it.

[44:39] My dad was a businessman and I was like, this is really getting on my nerves. Like I think this person is really going above and beyond what they should be doing.

[44:51] And again, this is in the early 1980s, so I don't know if there were a lot of precedents for this. So my dad immediately said, this is harassment. This person can't do this.

[45:04] You don't have to tell this person anything about what's going on with you. If you have sick time and you're sick, you can call in sick and nobody should be bothering you and asking all these intrusive questions.

[45:18] So you need to take this person to HR.

[45:23] Now. Remember, Maggie, I'm 21, so I'm very naive. Would I do this today? No, I would just let it go. And I'd say this person is an asshole, or I'd leave.

[45:37] I'd leave the unit or I'd leave the hospital. But back then, I was naive. I said, going to do it. So called HR. Hey, this is what's going on. To me and everybody in this unit.

[45:51] And I want to talk to somebody about it. Great, great. Let's have a meeting.

[45:57] And so we had this very awkward meeting where my manager was there in front of HR as well as I was, and I just talked about my grievance and I said, this is what's happening and I don't think it's right and I want it to stop.

[46:13] And amazingly, HR said, you're right. This person is harassing you and this needs to stop. And then they tell the person, this needs to stop. I don't want to ever hear anything more about this again.

[46:27] And Maggie, it stopped.

[46:30] And, you know, I felt like a hero in a way, but I was just very naive and I was just following the directions from somebody that had a little bit more, you know, experience in this field than I did being my father.

[46:45] So it worked out for me and for everybody else.

[46:49] But, man, there's a lot of stuff that still goes on like that. And I think that, you know, I'll say the average nurse really doesn't know what their rights are.

[47:00] So, you know, have you encountered cases like that? And obviously you counsel nurses on that, so I think that's great.

[47:08] Maggie: No, I have. And that's what I tell nurses is that, no, we don't, we don't tolerate that. And not only that, that nurse leader, wow, you are way out of your lane.

[47:17] You are putting yourself at risk and that organization at risk. That's not, that's not their lane. If you would have told me the employee health nurse, I'd have been like, totally their lane.

[47:28] Totally their lane. Nurse manager. Not your lane. Not your lane. You have an employee.

[47:34] Michelle: We didn't even have. We didn't have employee health at that time.

[47:38] Maggie: No, to your point. No. You have rights. Nah. And so good for you. No, I tell nurses that you do. You either, you either have to, you know, muscle up and you're either going to have to play the game like you said, or you leave.

[47:50] So what's the game? Is HR your friend? No, don't kid yourself. They are the company. When you go to HR you are in the company's office. I mean, let's just be real.

[47:59] And no one. We already talked about who's there for you. No one. So when you're standing there with your company. Just know are you in a one party, one party recording state, two party.

[48:08] What are your rights? Try not to go there alone. Equip yourself that you know that know the policy for calling in go to the handbook. Because what I tell nurses, one of the things that when any nurse comes to me and I do mentoring is that no, we're starting with your tool, your toolbox.

[48:25] And so was that your manila folder. And you can be real sure that's number one. One of the actionable items I'm having you do is that use a policy. Because again, when you go and you sit down and you have that middle of folder and you're going in street clothes, you're going to be from the waist up and some professional, you're not going there in your street clothes because visually as well you're going to set a tone that you look prepared and you have your manila folder, you're there with someone else.

[48:47] And like one young lady, her fiance just happened to be an attorney. Now I'm not going to tell you what type of attorney. Doesn't matter. Optics, they're like, who is he?

[48:56] He's an attorney. Optics folks, optics. So no, no, you know your rights, know your rights, call a friend, know some folks, but have that manila folder and all you're saying, per the policy, it says right here.

[49:07] And then you're going to double down the rules. You know what I mean? This is, and what I understand when I read this, this is a deviation from what your scope of practice is or what your, you know, unprofessional conduct, whatever it is, violation.

[49:19] So no, no. And, and when nurses like when you're being written up for stuff you didn't do. Why are you signing that? Why are you signing that? Don't let people bully you.

[49:28] Find a wolf nurse like me, like someone else on your unit who has the ability to, to stand next to you to help you know, counsel you or whatever. Call Risk Management.

[49:40] Call Legal because they know the letter of the law and they don't want any of the Mickey Mouse business that your non nurse legal nurse manager, anyone else who doesn't know the law, roping them into and then the back of the house are calling them in like, stop it.

[49:54] What are you doing? You don't even understand the law. You have no idea what you're doing. So we're going to stop with that right now. But most of the time there's such a huge disconnect that Legal doesn't even know what's happening.

[50:07] So I like to involve Legal. Hey, why don't we just go ahead and involve, you know, Risk Management. A lot of people don't even know there's a legal nurse consultant oftentimes in Legal because who's help doing those like fishbone analysis when there's a, let's just say a sentinel event.

[50:22] Oh, a legal nurse. So what they don't want to be involved in after the fact is a case. So why don't you go ahead and involve them ahead of time.

[50:29] But anytime you have questions, you know and you can reach out to me. HR is not your friend. But you do have to play the game. You have to use your chain of command.

[50:38] You're writing up an email, you know, and even if you're a nurse leader, that bullying can go the other way. It could be a staff nurse that is bullying a nurse leader.

[50:47] So that door does swing both ways. So that nurse leader does need to make sure that they're using their chain of command as well to help with whomever is because they're.

[50:56] We've all seen bullies on the unit as well and it could be still that 21, 25 year old who's ill equipped as the nurse manager, the nurse director in a position that is just, you know, use your chain of command so that bullying could happen.

[51:10] As you know, I on as a nurse leader or the staff nurse.

[51:15] Michelle: Yeah. You know, this is such a serious topic and I, I've had a smile on my face the entire time because you're so entertaining and I just love your, your delivery and you know, it's

[51:31] You would be my phone friend if something like this happened. I would be calling now. Who are you going to call? I'm calling Maggie the nurse advocate.

[51:42] Wow. I have learned so much.

[51:44] Maggie: My friend Radonda, which I think we talked about because Radonda and I aren't friends. Her and then Dr. Susan Davis, the rescue nurse say WWMD. What, what would Maggie do? I'm like, you know it.

[51:56] You know it. So when I write stuff I'm like WWMD folks.

[52:00] WWMD. Maggie would not be doing that.

[52:03] Michelle: I love that. And I love Susan Davis.

[52:06] Maggie: I love her.

[52:08] Michelle: That's right. Yeah. Susan was amazing.

[52:12] Maggie: Love Susan. Her and I are collaborating, doing stuff together because what she does around code, she's got Reaction Ready now. I mean just amazing.

[52:22] Michelle: Yeah, she's on fire like you Maggie.

[52:26] Maggie: We're on fire. We're just trying to equip nurses and organizations to better protect themselves and essentially patients. Because that's what it comes down to, essentially.

[52:37] Michelle: Yeah. I love it. I love that you're out there and that you're an advocate for nurses. We need more humans like you.

[52:44] And, man, I thank you so much for coming on, Maggie. This conversation was so long overdue, but I know if it had been two and a half years ago, you know, it just wouldn't have gone as well as it did today because I just didn't have the experience.

[52:59] And so I'm so glad that the timing worked out for both of us.

[53:05] Maggie: Ditto. Ditto. Thank you for having me. Super honored. Super honored. Love connecting with nurses, you know, given talking about this stuff, hopefully for preventing nurses from ever standing in any courts of law and then highlighting any other, you know, some of the other nurses that we drop names of, even yourself.

[53:20] Thank you for all you're doing. Highlighting myself, Susan Davis. Right. Because we can be out in the world doing this stuff, but if we don't have people like you given this, the opportunity to talk about this, then, I mean, I can be out in the universe.

[53:31] So thank you for providing the safe space for me to talk about this stuff.

[53:36] Michelle: Well, thank you. Thank you for all you do. And I do want to talk about your podcast before we end here. So tell me about your podcast and what's your purpose?

[53:47] Maggie: So the podcast I'm working on, so it's for my subscribers, so I have on my website, and then I also have like a YouTube, so I don't know if I've used those or interchangeably if I have.

[53:57] I. I apologize.

[53:59] On my website, I started that in June last year. I go over a case, I interview someone, and I break down a case. For example, I think you heard Radonda's.

[54:10] That ended up being three hours, and I had to break it up. And then I tried to take me totally out of it, and I tried to just break down her case so that you could see the written word.

[54:21] What would it mean and what's the boring piece of it like I talked about? What's the meat of it? You may or may not want to know. So I just interview a nurse.

[54:29] It's $5 a month.  It's nothing crazy.

[54:32] Just so you know, what would it look like if it. If I did cross over and there was any kind of litigation? What would that look like?

[54:40] Michelle: Yeah, that's great. Again, for the value the content is just fantastic. So thank you for what you do in that space.

[54:48] And as Susan Davis recommended you as a guest on this podcast, is there someone that you recommend as a guest?

[54:56] Maggie: Well, since you already had Susan Davis, we got Jen Johnson. You know Jennifer Johnson. She just wrote a book.

[55:06] Have you had Jennifer on?

[55:07] Michelle: I've have. Yeah.

[55:08] Maggie: Jennifer Crow. You know Jen Crow. She has Nurses for Nurses. Have you had Jen on?

[55:13] Michelle: Yes.

[55:13] Maggie: Love, Love. Jen put me on the side.

[55:17] I'm trying to think who else. Actually, there's Laura with TNA. She does policy with Texas Nurse Association.

[55:25] Then we got Tracy Abbott. She's with like the government oversight committee with Texas Nurse Association. I'm obviously a Texas nurse.

[55:36] So these are people that are as they're moving into a session and stuff, and people get active trying to figure out, you know, what they're want to get involved in.

[55:45] This has nothing to do with politics because has nothing. We got to show up. We want safe staffing, want things in place that affect us. Then we have to show up.

[55:54] So those are some suggestions and I'll have to hit you up with some other people, but a lot of great Rebecca Love. I mean, she's amazing. Harder one to capture.

[56:04] Good luck with that. One another. I mean, just an amazing nurse. Let's see. Lydell, he re-did the patient gown.

[56:12] Charlene and Kathleen have 5th window. We have Elisa Jenkins. She's got Castrata. So any of those nurses. I had the honor standing next to them on the showroom floor when I was at HLTH.

[56:25] So Mick Hopkins. Oh, my gosh, how can I skip over Mick? I love Mick. Mick is amazing. So Mick Hopkins has 28 patents. I mean, how can we forget Mick?

[56:36] So any of those. Any of those nurses? Absolutely love them.

[56:40] Michelle: All those nurse entrepreneurs, Right? That's easy.

[56:44] Maggie: Yes, ma'am.

[56:45] Michelle: Okay, cool. All right, well, where can we find.

[56:48] Maggie: You on all the social media platforms? LinkedIn to TikTok to Instagram to Blue Sky.

[56:56] No shortage of these apps out there. I can't keep track of them. I'm sure you are. Well, well, I'm like, stop it. I can't get on another one.

[57:03] Videos and stuff out on Tik Tok. A lot of people like the video content the bedside nurse. So it depends on what you're trying to digest. But everywhere I have a website you can get free downloads for sure.

[57:15] Under investigation, charting, tips. So absolutely be sure to get on over and check out my website.

[57:23] Michelle: Sweet. Again, it'll be in the show notes. So thank you for that.

[57:28] Wow, what an hour we have had. Maggie, thank you so much. I so appreciate you being here. For all your knowledge and your expertise and your delivery. I absolutely love your delivery.

[57:40] You are just, you're just a ball of fun. And, like I said, I've been laughing and smiling the entire time, so thank you for that. It's a great way to spend a Tuesday morning.

[57:52] Maggie: Well, thank you for having me. My animation is not always appreciated, so love to be in a space where that's appreciated, sister.

[58:00] Michelle: Love it. Love it. Okay, we reached the end, the last five minutes where we played the five minute snippet. It's just five minutes of fun. Maggie, are you ready to play?

[58:10] Maggie: I am.

[58:52] Sweet. Okay. Convince me to live in Austin, Texas.

[58:57] Maggie: Keep it weird.

[59:00] Michelle: That's right. It's your motto.

[59:02] Maggie: If you know, you know.

[59:03] Michelle: That's right. Love it. Okay, this is a finish the sentence. I get really annoyed when people don't_______

[59:12] Maggie: Know the rules and regulations that dictate their professional license. I know that sounds ugly as the advocate, but I do get a little frustrated when people don't know the rules and regulations.

[59:21] Michelle: Okay. Hey, it is what it is.

[59:24] Okay? We're in your house and there's a picture on your wall of your favorite travel destination.

[59:30] Where is it and who is in the picture?

[59:33] Maggie: Jamaica. And it's my husband.

[59:36] Michelle: Ooh, Jamaica, mon.

[59:39] Maggie: So I got married a couple years ago. Negril, baby.

[59:43] Michelle: Nice. I love it. Okay, cool. All right, let's see. Would you rather perform with the Radio City Rockettes or as a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader?

[59:55] Maggie: The Rockettes.

[59:57] Michelle: What? Maggie, you're not a Dallas fan and you live in Texas.

[01:00:01] Maggie: I'm not born and raised here, so I'll just leave with that.

[01:00:07] Michelle: I love it. Okay. Would you rather run two miles or do 200 jumping jacks?

[01:00:14] Maggie: Jumping jacks.

[01:00:16] Michelle: Not a runner.

[01:00:18] Maggie: I'm not a runner. I do train five days a week. I'm not a runner. I lift weights. I'm not a runner.

[01:00:23] Michelle: You could probably do 200 burpees, no problem, huh?

[01:00:27] Maggie: I probably could. Yes.

[01:00:29] Michelle: Yes. I love it. See, I don't know if you caught my CrossFit sweatshirt.

[01:00:35] Maggie: Love it. Get it.

[01:00:39] Michelle: I did that for two years. Some of the proudest two years of my life.

[01:00:42] Maggie: Yeah, that's hard stuff there.

[01:00:43] Michelle: Okay, finish this sentence. When I hear my favorite song, I feel______

[01:00:51] Maggie: Sad. Makes me miss my mom, sudden cardiac when she was 55. So it's just one of those things that, Led Zeppelin. I'll leave it at that. Classic.

[01:01:05] Michelle: Yep. Got it.

[01:01:06] Maggie: Wow.

[01:01:07] Michelle: I'm sorry. Okay, tell me about a time you put your foot in your mouth.

[01:01:15] Maggie: Well, there was a group text, and I was talking about someone that was on the group text, and, you know, there it was folks, I had to walk into the nurse's station in the morning and own it.

[01:01:25] I was like, well, yep. So I did that. And although I did really mean that, it's not my intended delivery of that message.

[01:01:34] I didn't know that exactly how I want to deliver it or even if I wanted that delivered.

[01:01:41] Michelle: Oh, my God. They just need an undo button at that point. And I was thinking about this last night.

[01:01:47] Maggie: My friend was calling me. She was like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. You know what you just did? And I was like, clearly not.

[01:01:53] Michelle: Yeah, I think we've all had one of those foot in the mouth moments. And last night I was thinking what was mine, and. And I think it was hitting reply all with, like, a really snarky email comment.

[01:02:05] Maggie: And there it is. Yeah.

[01:02:06] Michelle: You only do that once, right?

[01:02:08] Maggie: Yep.

[01:02:10] Michelle: Yeah. Well, hey, you did great in the five-minute snippet, Maggie. I really appreciate you indulging me and our listeners.

[01:02:18] Maggie: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you.

[01:02:21] Michelle: Hey, you have a great rest of your Tuesday.

[01:02:24] Maggie: You too. Thank you for having me on.