Hallmarks of a Great Nurse Leader with Kirsten Ferren

[00:00] Michelle: Meet Kirsten Ferren, a nurse who has been serving in healthcare for over 23 years. She brings to the table her experience as a former Chief Nursing Officer and currently holds the position of Vice President of patient care. She is also an author, mentor, and leadership consultant at the company she owns, Nursing Inferno Coaching. We had a stimulating conversation about how leaders can show up for those they lead, strategies that help prevent staff burnout, and the qualities that nurse leaders should possess. Kirsten has a passion for developing leaders who value authenticity and connection as essential leadership skills, as well as kindness. I love what she said about kindness. Kirsten's dedication to supporting and developing nurse leaders is apparent, and she strongly believes that how we lead others is critical to changing the culture of nursing. In the five-minute snippet: Between giant hamsters, tiny elephants, and duck-sized horses, this was a crazy five minutes of fun. Well, good morning, Kirsten. Welcome to the show.

[01:31] Kirsten: Thank you, Michelle. I'm so excited to be here.

[01:35] Michelle: Me too. It's been a little while since we kind of met, and I think we met. I think I saw you post something on the StatPD website. So, of course, you know that I interviewed Nicole Weathers, who is a co-founder of StatPD, and that was a great interview. And you posted something in the store, and we'll get to that. But tell me what your history is like, what, how you got into nursing, and a little bit about where you've worked and so forth.

[02:15] Kirsten: Sure. I always love, I think, sharing a little bit about my story and how I got to be a nurse. I actually came into nursing a little bit later in life. I was, I've been a nurse for almost 24 years now and didn't start in nursing until I was almost 30. So it's been a little bit, a little bit of time. I started my nursing career in the burn center in Oregon. So I worked with burn patients, but very quickly kind of transitioned into leadership. And I always think it's fun to share that. My sister is also a nurse, and I became a nurse, I think, because of her. She's younger than me by a couple of years, and she was a nurse, and she was telling me at the time, you should just, you should be a nurse. You can be anything you want to be if you are a nurse. You can do so many things. And I thought that that was just such an amazing way to think about nursing. So I became a nurse and went to school, was a burn center nurse for many years, became a leader fairly quickly early on, and then have just risen, I think, through the leadership ranks to now over the last five and a half years, I've been a chief nursing officer for a larger hospital in Arizona, and I am most recently the vice president of patient care at a smaller community hospital in Oregon.

[03:49] Michelle: I love it. That is such a great story. And I just, you know, I'm a nerd that way. I love hearing stories of how nurses got into the profession, and I love that your sister's a nurse. I have two sisters who are also nurses and several brothers who are nurses. So I think that connection with your siblings, you know, it's a trusting relationship. And if somebody says, hey, this is really cool, I think you would love it. It comes with a lot of credibility behind it.

[04:22] Kirsten: Amazing, right? She kind of led that way and led the path and she loves being a nurse still after all these years. And, yeah, it's just a good bonding over that for sure.

[04:37] Michelle: Love it. Well, what inspired you to become a nurse leader and was it something that was just natural for you or how did you get into that field?

[04:50] Kirsten: I think that that's such an interesting question because I don't think that I started out thinking I should be a leader, and I don't think many of us do. Right. I think some of us just kind of get put in that position and then you, you just move forward from there. So I think I'm very similar to most people. You start out and you're at the bedside and someone says, would you like to be a leader? And I think most of us sort of shake our heads and say no. And I said yes. I didn't say yes right away. I had young children at the time and can I be a nurse leader and still have a young family? So I ended up saying yes. It was a great experience for me. I ended up loving being a leader and I loved the ability to think of my staff like my patients so I could take care of them, I could give them what they needed, I could support them, I could help grow them. I could make other leaders, you know, people that wanted to also be a leader. And I could mentor and grow that group of people. And I think that's why I've stayed with it all these years, which is now probably close to 16-17 years in leadership. And, and I have loved it and it's been, you know, it's a learning journey. It's not fast, and it's not easy and you make mistakes. But at the end of the day, I will just tell everybody that I love being a nurse. I love being a leader, and I love hopefully, helping us all continue to grow to the next stage, whatever that is for us, that we want.

[06:32] Michelle: Well, that's an inspiring story. And, you know, when I think of nurse leaders, so some of the things that I have accused institutions of, mine in particular, that I worked at for 40 years, and I know other institutions as well, is that sometimes nurse leaders are recognized at the bedside first. Right. Amazing bedside nurses, they show so many leadership skills, mentorship, you know, just, they're, they're amazing providers, and they are kind of plucked out of that. Somebody sees that in them and they say, you know, would you like to step up and lead in some capacity as an assistant nurse manager, a nurse manager, whatever the role is? But then they take this really great nurse and then they put them in this different position, but they don't give them the tools that they need to really thrive, and they don't give them the support that they need, and then they end up burning out and leaving that leadership position within a few years because I can imagine it's not easy. It's got to be very tough, and especially if you don't have support. So what resources were available to you when you became a nurse leader and who supported you and what kind of support did you get?

[08:08] Kirsten: Yeah, I think that's so true. We don't do a great job of supporting our nurse leaders. We kind of throw them in, into the mix and we say go, and there's very little support for them. And so that is absolutely a passion of mine. I think I was really fortunate when I first started out as a leader. I had a couple of nurse leaders who supported and grew me, and I don't know if they taught me as much as they allowed me to explore leadership opportunities. So I was able to go to the American Organization of Nurse Leaders and do a fellowship with them and, and try new and different and exciting things about how I would like to lead and how I would like to support my staff. But I also think I was a huge self-learner, and so I spent huge amounts of time just learning about leadership and growing my own leadership pathway and deciding who I wanted to be as a leader. And actually, I can remember this story when I was a young leader, brand new, you know, and I remember someone saying to me, you, you're very, very nice, and you probably are going to have to rein some of that in, you probably can't maybe be quite as nice as you are. And I remember having some very hurt feelings over that, thinking, wow, if I can't be who I am, I don't know if I want to do this. And so I had a mentor, and I talked to my mentor, and I just said, you know, am I going to have to give up who I am to be a nurse leader? And her very amazing advice to me was, don't give up who you are, but always give yourself time to think. You know, always give yourself a chance to pause before you respond, because if your first instinct is to respond with, you know, niceness, kindness, you may miss out on other opportunities or the opportunity to help someone grow or to give advice. So over the course of my life, I have learned the, you know, the fine art of pausing. Just pause for a minute, think about what you really want to say. And that has allowed me, I think, to continue to live my own core values of kindness and being good to other people and also seeing people for who they are as humans, not just as my staff.

[10:47] Michelle: I love that. I recently had the privilege of interviewing my former NICU nurse manager, Felicia Torres Vaughn, and her episode is already out, having worked with her way back. We started in pediatrics together, and she was an LVN, and then she became an RN, and she just had a lot of leadership qualities all along. But then when she became my nurse manager, the relationship sort of changed, and I had a different respect for her. But one of the things that struck me is that she said one of the hardest things to learn was taking that pause before responding. And it was so funny that she said that because the last couple of years that we worked together, I could see that change in her where we would be talking about something and I would ask her a question and there would be this long pause, and she would just be looking at me and she'd say, I need to think about that, or I'm not sure how I feel about that. And it was funny. I didn't know what she was doing at the time. And then when she talked about it on the episode, I was like, oh, got it. But she said that was one of the hardest things to learn as a leader for her. So. Wow.

[12:20] Kirsten: Yeah, definitely.

[12:23] Michelle: Well, let's talk about another thing, because this is something else that I've observed in leadership roles is when you have been in the same ranks as some of the folks that you are now leading, that relationship has to change in a way. I've heard nurse managers, directors say I can't be friends with the people that I used to work with anymore, so they kind of had to cut some of those ties, and the relationship changed. And sometimes people don't like that, and sometimes people can't handle that and they move on. So has that been something that has happened to you in your career?

[13:17] Kirsten: I did have the opportunity to lead a staff that I was actually part of right before I became a leader. But I think for me, it was very different than maybe it is for other people. I had some really unique roles within the burn center. I did some bedside nursing, but then I also ended up doing a lot of education and outreach and just some variety of things. And I think that that separation kind of gave me the distance where I didn't feel like I had to necessarily change my relationships with people. But over the years, as I've led different organizations and been the brand new person to a new organization. Right. So I'm the new person coming in, being the leader. I think nursing leadership has changed a little bit over time. It used to be to have these really strong boundaries and don't be friends with people and don't this and don't that. But I think what we are finding out now is we don't have to be best friends with people. We don't have to have relationships outside of work. But we really do need to know who people are, what their lives are like outside of work, what are their family situations. We need to know those things so that we can support them, so that they can come back to work tomorrow if we have a staff and we don't know those things. I think those are the times when nurses really do get burnt out, when they don't feel that support. We all have family situations going on in our lives outside of work, and we sometimes need the support of our leaders in order to make it through those times. And so I have found over time that I may not be, I guess, best friends with my staff, but I want to know who they are. I want to know what's going on with them, and I want to support them when they go through things so that hopefully they will be able to come back to work tomorrow and know that they have a place with me because we need them. We found that out right during the pandemic. We found that we needed our staff, and our staff were suffering, and not a lot of us were, I think, very skilled at figuring out how do you support the staff and get them to come back tomorrow and realize that they have families and people that they're worried about. So that's definitely a process. I see that shifting in leadership now, and I'm really excited about that.

[15:59] Michelle: That's a great shift and a much-needed one. And I think, for the staff to be seen, I think that's really important on so many different levels, but I would just imagine engagement, participation, all of that would be stronger with that relationship. So talking about being seen, Kirsten, another criticism of nurse leaders is that they are separated from their staff. They hide behind the door of their office or they're not seen at the unit level. So how have you been able to be seen by your staff?

[16:49] Kirsten: Yes. I mean, I do think that that is an unfortunate sometimes part of the job. Sometimes I think leaders get scared. Right. And they do hide behind their doors. I am a big fan of, I leave my door open unless I'm on a call. One of the hardest things I think right now, in any system you're in and any leadership role you're in is we are just inundated with meetings and a variety of things, and you have to actually make time to go out and be out on the floor. And it's hard. It's not easy. And sometimes as leaders, we go out to the floor and either people don't want to see us or they're very busy, and you end up kind of sometimes just being in the way. Right. You're busy, you go into the emergency department, and do people really have time to talk to you? So for me, I have found that I try very hard to, like, set aside time, and many leaders do that, right? They round and they set aside time and some, and sometimes, to be honest, you know, I'm better at it than others, but I always have my door open when I can. I like people to just come by and I keep couch in my office so people can just come by and sit and chat with me whenever they want to. Unless I'm in a meeting I can't get out of, I will almost always stop what I'm doing and just sit and chat with whoever comes to see me. And that really, really helps. I do try to make an effort to even go to some of the staff meetings, and that's also a fine line. Right? Like, you go to a staff meeting and are people going to speak up and say what they want to say, or will they not because I'm in the room. Right. So it's a fine line of trying to balance your relationships and make sure that they know you're there for them, but also they can speak up in front of you, do I have. I created a culture of safety so that people can say what they want to say. A lot of times, my answer is the same as your mentor's, you know, answer, which is, I don't have an answer, but let me think about it and I'll get back to you.

[18:59] Michelle: Yeah. I think that transparency is so important in that relationship because we come to the leaders for answers, and it's really not fair to expect them to always have an answer whenever we ask a question. But we have that sense of leadership. They know it all. They know all the answers. And I think that's unrealistic, and we should probably step back from that expectation. And I'm glad that leaders are changing what the face of that looks like and saying, you know what, I'm going to have to get back to you on that, because honestly if we were asked the same questions that you were, we would need some time to do some research and. And to give a thoughtful answer and not just something off the top of our head. Right. Yeah. Well, let's see, what are some of the biggest challenges that you have faced as a nurse leader and what are some of the outcomes of those challenges?

[20:12] Kirsten: Such a good question. I mean, if you just look back at our recent history, of course, you know, COVID is the thing that comes to mind, and. And it's part of why I started my journey on social media, right. Because nurse leaders were really being villainized, and I thought nurse leaders needed support. So when I started posting on social media and trying to create some resources for leaders, it was because I saw that need. And the hard part is nurse leaders often see kind of this bigger picture. But I think what we really struggle at, not only at the leadership level, but just at a system level, is helping the staff around us understand that big picture. And so often our staff are making assumptions that we could dispel with just a few minutes of taking some time to explain things or share why we do what we do. And that's its own journey in leadership. That's its own hardship. Right. So COVID really brought that to the forefront for us, because what very quickly was happening is staff were very angry with us as leaders. And for most of us, I will say probably 95% of us, we really did want things for our staff. We wanted the PPE, we wanted to support them, and we didn't have it either. And we didn't have that ability. And it really broke so many leaders broke their hearts, and it made them sad, and it made many leaders leave, and a huge amount of our leadership retired, and it was all because they knew that their staff needed these things to support them, and we didn't have it. So that's been its own challenge, right, to try to connect the dots on the bigger picture, help staff understand where we're coming from. But it also has challenged us as leaders to step up our game a little bit. Communication is hard during the easiest of times. Communication is still hard, and we could and needed to do better, and we all learned that during COVID for sure. So I think that's been, you know, a good challenge for me, helped me grow in my leadership journey, and it also helped me decide that I wanted to support other leaders in a way and say, look, there are ways that you can do this to make it easier on yourself as a leader and support your staff. And how do we kind of put those two pieces together and see the business side as well as see the staff side?

[23:02] Michelle: Yeah, that's great. You know, COVID, as you said, it woke up a lot of issues in the profession with communication, with trust. Just so many of those things kind of blew up, and it's like we had to kind of relearn a lot of things. And I agree with you. We lost a lot of great nurse leaders. We lost a lot of great bedside nurses with decades of experience. You know, I was part of the great resignation. It was post-COVID, and I was like, I've got 40 years. I'm done. Yeah.

[23:48] Kirsten: And nursing is hard. It's still so hard.

[23:52] Michelle: Yes, it is. Well, what do you think are some of the most important qualities that a nurse leader should possess?

[24:01] Kirsten: Well, for me, I will just say I think you have to have a love for people. And fortunately, most nurses go into nursing because they have a love for people. So have a love for your people and have a lot of patience. There are many reasons why our staff are upset or frustrated, and there are many reasons why leaders do what they do. But the best leaders that I have found are the ones that take the time to put that together. Right. To connect the dots for each other, to have patience, to explain things, to communicate appropriately. So I think those are very good for me. I have a huge love for, I call it kindness, but people can call it, you know, whatever they want, you know, passion, patience, tolerance. But I call it kindness. And I have a huge love for kindness. You know, no matter what I'm doing, I think I have the time to be kind about it, even if we have to have a very difficult discussion or something isn't exactly going right, and we need to change the way that we're doing things. I have the time to be kind. I have the time to be patient. I have the time to explain things. And I think that the days are gone when we say, you need to do it because I've told you to. So take the time, be patient. Be kind. You can be kind and still have accountability in your workplace.

[25:33] Michelle: Yeah. That's a very important message and one that we could all adopt. Right. It's like it doesn't take any more time to be kind, to be thoughtful. We all have stuff going on. We all have lives outside of work. We all have stressors, and, and we understand that. But I'm with you. There's no space anymore for the leader that says, just do it because I said so. That that's not a leader. That's, you know, that's kind of like a dictator.

[26:11] Kirsten: Yeah. And we, and we've definitely seen those. Right. We've seen that leadership style, and I've certainly come into an organization and had to take over after that kind of leadership style, and it leaves a mark on the staff. And I think life and nursing and all of that is. It's too hard and too short. Right. For that. You know? And I think it causes us as leaders so much stress. We don't need to cause that much stress. We have a stressful job. Let's see what we can do to make it easier and better for people, not worse.

[26:48] Michelle: Yeah. Well, how do you come in as a stranger, I guess, to an organization? And what are the first steps in establishing rapport with your staff so that they can, you know, gain some trust and learn who you are?

[27:07] Kirsten: For me, it's coming in very slowly, and you have to. To practice that. Right. Because sometimes we all walk into a situation and we say, let's change this and this and this. And I've had to really teach myself over the years, slow down. Nothing has to be done today. Nothing even has to be done this month or in the next three months. The first thing that I do as a leader is just try to get to know the people and actually let them get to know me a little bit. And that's hard. Right. Because there's probably things that you want to fix or change, but you can do that over time. And actually, if you support the staff, the staff will make the changes that the organization needs with the appropriate support. So you don't have to be the one as a leader coming in and saying, do this, do this. Do this. Do this. What you have to do is come in, start slow, get to know people, ask the people what they want to change and make better, and then support that process. And it does take time. It's my way to do it. It may not be everybody's way to do it, but I have found that that has worked very well for me over the years. And now I feel like that's my style. Right? Slow down, go slow, and we'll get there eventually. We can do it over time.

[28:46] Michelle: Yeah. That also is a great, I guess, outlook and one that many nurse leaders really could adopt to be more effective, I feel. How do you stay up to date with all the latest developments and trends in healthcare?

[29:07] Kirsten: Work in progress, right. That's definitely its own chore, because healthcare, the thing that. The one thing we can say about healthcare is that it's constantly changing. And I feel like that's the one thing we can all count on. And that's probably it, right? It's constantly changing over probably over the last ten years, I really devoted myself to learning about leadership trends outside of healthcare. I haven't put my, my books in your bookshop yet, but I like to read a lot about leadership now and leadership styles and how other people lead and how do we lead outside of nursing? Because I think nursing sometimes can get very secular and we can say we have to do it this way. This is the way we've always done it. But I also think there's a huge pathway of leadership expertise outside of nursing, and now I try to bring that into my world. And so that's the leadership side of it. Right. But then there's also all the pieces of healthcare and staying up to date with all of those, which was sort of your original question. And there's a variety of things I do. American Organization of Nurse Leaders. I try to read various articles on a regular basis. I actually now, you know, given my online presence with trying to support nurse leaders and all nurses, I try now to just talk with a lot of people, which has been so fun, just having conversations like this with people and understanding where other people are coming from. And that's made a huge difference in my leadership life.

[30:47] Michelle: I like that style a lot. How do you motivate your team so that seems like it would be something difficult to do, but how do you motivate and kind of inspire your team to achieve their full potential?

[31:06] Kirsten: Oh, such a good question. Interesting, because I, you know, hopefully I'm always growing people around me. I will say, I've said this before, but I'll say it again that I think nurses are all leaders. You don't have to be a formal leader or have a formal title to be a leader. And so I think my biggest way to motivate people, first and foremost, is just to listen. And I have found, I was just at a hospital in Arizona for several years, and I had found that when I listened to them and what their needs were, I was growing leaders around me in an amazing way and hopefully developing them and hopefully they felt developed right. That was my goal. And I think that that is what motivates them. When they feel supported and they bring an idea to you and you say, yes, let's do that and let's do it together then. And they find themselves successful at that journey, then they're motivated to keep doing what is the next thing we need to do? How do we need to do it? What can we do to get there? How do I support my team so they can support their team so they can best support patients? And I think that people like that, I have found a lot of success in that way.

[32:29] Michelle: I think you're absolutely right. From a personal standpoint, I will say there were times, as a developmental specialist in the NICU, where I would have a piece of education have or something that I really wanted to bring to the staff. And I went to my leaders and presented it and they're like, yeah, run with it. Like, tell us what we can do to support you. And that just starts a fire inside that person to, to be recognized that their ideas are worthy to be offered support for their ideas and mentorship. It's everything, you know? It's everything.

[33:13] Kirsten: I really agree. And I think what leaders are in a really interesting challenge right now, which I think is going to change itself over the next probably five years. But a lot of our staff are very new nurses. Right. They're starting out. We did have the great resignations. We lost a lot of just our institutional and our nursing knowledge. Right. With all that retirement. And what I see right now is a lot of nursing staff, they're not ready to say, give me a project or let me do something extra, let me learn something new. And I think it's because we're still on the edge of battling the learning curve, the burnout, the stress that people feel. I think that that's going to take a little bit of time. We have to nurture that very, very slowly to get people back on the pathway of growing and expanding their knowledge. And that's going to take a lot of time and we can't give up. Right? We can't give up on people. But we also have to recognize when we were brand new nurses, it took a couple of years before we felt comfortable and ready to speak up. And so we're in a very tenuous time right now in nursing where we need to allow our staff to grow and very gently nurture them and also help them deal with their burnout and their stress so they can participate in something extra. Like when you offered a suggestion and you had a leader saying run with it. So. And that's going to take time.

[34:51] Michelle: Yeah, I think it's very near. I feel it. I feel like this momentum is coming and it's very near. So that's just going to be fantastic when that happens and nurses open up to new ideas and new ways of doing things and supportive leadership, I think that's going to be great. Well, before we talk about Nursing Inferno, because that is really interesting, I want to know, how do you personally balance the demands of your leadership position with just your personal life and your well-being?

[35:34] Kirsten: I think that's a good question. I think it is a work in progress for all of us. I will say that having a good support system at home has been essential for me to keep doing the things I do. When you kind of are at the executive level, you, and at any leadership level, to be honest, you're on call 24/7. It's hard, right? It's hard to step away. Actually, many years ago, it used to be kind of standard that you would work, you know, 60 plus hours a week as a leader. And I remember telling a leader of my own many years ago, I don't think I can do that. I think I have young children. I want to be out of this building by 5:00 every day. And she was very supportive in that. She was like, that is a good goal for you. You should leave this building every day by five. And I have lived that life for all these years now. I try to leave the building on time. If I have to stay late, I stay late. But I try to make sure that I'm no longer promoting that I'm going to work 60 and 70 hours a week in order to get the job done because it's never done. I try to promote that in my leadership team so that they know I know you're on call 24/7 so make sure you have that balance. And then for me personally, I just have been very, very lucky to have a husband who supports, supports me at home and cooks most dinners and does most of the laundry, you know, does all these amazing things, which I think help keep me going. And I would be so remiss not to. Not to point that out.

[37:20] Michelle: Right.

[37:22] Kirsten: And then I just try to have some balance, and that is its own work in progress.

[37:28] Michelle: Right.

[37:28] Kirsten: There are days when I know I need to exercise more or I need to eat better or I need to do the things that we all know we need to do. And I just try to keep doing those things, even if it's, you know, I. One day I do it, I don't do it again for three weeks. Just keep. Keep finding that balance, because we need that as nurses, we need balance, and I think we all know that. And again, something that COVID brought to us, more balance. Right.

[37:59] Michelle: Wow. I think balance is. It's just. It's everything. And thank God, gone are the days of those that grind. And I've had managers like that. That was the expectation that they were always on call, that they were to stay until every problem was taken care of. And those are not some of the best people to be around, and rightly so. It was not right. So I'm glad that that's changing, too. Well, who are some of your mentors?

[38:37] Kirsten: I have had many mentors in my life, and I've been super lucky to have that many, many nurse leaders. Of course, I have been super fortunate to learn from my own staff, too. Right. So when you take the time to sit down and talk with your staff, they can help you grow. They can help you change. So I've loved that. I informally am a big fan of leadership experts like John Maxwell and a few of those other ones, and I try to learn a lot from them because I think that they, you know, those people that write leadership books and they've learned how to be good leaders throughout their life. They can really help challenge what you think, you know, as a leader. And so that's been really fortunate. And then, just on a personal note, I had a mentor for many, many years, and she actually just passed away a couple of years ago. And it was so hard on me because she had been there since day one, and no matter what job I've been in, she would always take the time to talk to me about a variety of things. How can I do this differently? Or what can I say? And she was just that person that you bounce things off of. It's been a big void in my life since she passed, and so I'm actually in the process of trying to find a new mentor for myself. But also realize that now I need to be what she was for me to other people.

[40:07] Michelle: Wow, she sounds like a special person. I love that ome of your mentors have come from your staff, and I've said that throughout my career is that we're all teachers and we're all students and we're all mentors and we're all mentees. Right. And we can move. Those roles are fluid. You are not stuck in the role of either being a mentor or a mentee or a student or a teacher. We move in and out of those, and we should move in and out of those throughout our career. Well, I want to talk about Nursing Inferno Coaching. So tell us what that is and what you do and who some of your clients are.

[40:57] Kirsten: So Nursing Inferno is a platform that I started on Instagram, you know, right in the middle of COVID probably like we all did, you know, 2020, 2021. And I wanted to, I think, share my leadership style as well as hopefully give leaders a place to go where they could get some positivity. It's been. It's just something that I do a little bit here and there. Right. Most of my coaching is informal. My clients, my people are literally people that might just call me up and say, what do you think about this? Like, what do you think about this one situation I'm working on? What do you think I should do? And I've actually have, you know, nurses from many years in my past call me and just chat with me and just say, what about this? What about this? So that's been such a blessing to, I think, not only reconnect with people, but also to feel like I could share my voice and maybe support other leaders in their pathway. I, you know, I hope nursing Inferno is my retirement plan one day. We all want to retire. I'm not sure, you know, I'm not sure when that will be for me. But, you know, I think what I have loved more than anything is when I get the opportunity to teach a class on leadership or create a leadership academy for someone. Those days are some of the days that fill my bucket more than anything else. Right? Love. And I think we all need that as nurses. We need that something else that really fills your bucket. You have your job, and then there's something that really, really keeps you going inside your work environment. And for me, that's what it is.

[42:57] Michelle: I love it. I love that you have that platform that's just so open and you can talk about all of those issues within the leadership community. That's great. I mentioned earlier about. You authored a nursing leadership workbook, and that's on the StatPD website. But talk about that workbook and who it's for and what we can expect to gain from it.

[43:28] Kirsten: Sure. So I love stat PD, and Nicole is amazing. And that whole group has been so fun to work with. I try to put different leadership tools on the StatPD website or on my own website just to help. So I created the workbook because I found that sometimes we just need tools and they weren't there for us. Right. Or we're reinventing the wheel. And so how. How do we make it easy? How can I help you as a brand-new leader? Just find a little bit of an easy button. And that was what the workbook was about, and I always think about doing a second one. So now maybe you've inspired me to start the second one. I. And then I kind of shifted into, what are leadership tools that I would like? And so there's a variety of things that I. Every year, I try to do some kind of leadership planner, and that's just been a little bit of an exploration and a growth path for me. My first leadership planner was just, you know, kind of just a place where you could write down your days and your thoughts and, and those things, and it's morphed into, here's a leadership lesson every month that you can do for yourself as well as you can take it back to your team. And so, so that was a leadership planner, and I love that. And it's a little bit homegrown. And so this next year, I'm actually looking at, how can I make a leadership planner that's a little bit more professional and maybe really gives you what you want as a leader? You know, what do you need as a leader? And how can I put that into words and into workshops and into worksheets that kind of keep you going? Right. So that's. That's what. That's mostly what I have on the StatPD website. And I. I had an opportunity, I don't know, probably six months ago or so where one of my, one of my co-workers was saying, can you just write down the various things that you say so that I. So I wrote, like, these little cards, you know, just remind us all of things. And, and it's not that I am, like, the expert at saying all these things as much as, let's just write down what really inspires us and what really motivates us as leaders, you know, to keep. Keep ourselves motivated, but also when we're in those really hard times that these little cards ended up being a cue, a reminder for us to slow down or take 1 minute or have you had any fun today? And so that's what, you know, some of the other things on the, on the Stat PD website are about. That's just for fun. You know, just something little for fun.

[46:21] Michelle: I love that. Well, we need. We need more fun, right?

[46:26] Kirsten: Yeah.

[46:26] Michelle: And, and I love planners and workbooks. I've always been kind of a nerd that way. And who better to author a workbook for a leader than a leader? Because you know exactly what they need and they're busy. And I'm sure all of those things come in really handy. And, you know, I love the idea of the cards, inspirational quotes, because in real life, we go into offices everywhere and we see posters with inspirational quotes from leaders from change-makers, and they inspire us. Right. That's what they're meant to do. We remember them. I have several in my wallet right now that I keep with me all the time, and I take them out when I need some inspiration or some comfort or whatever it is. So I think those things are really effective, and I'm glad that you created those.

[47:32] Kirsten: It's been a super fun journey and fun just to kind of try to, you know.

[47:38] Michelle: Yeah.

[47:39] Kirsten: Get that information out to people.

[47:42] Michelle: Yeah. I love it. Okay, this next question is something that I recently started asking, and it might. It might put you on the spot. If so, you don't need to. You can take that, that leadership pause, Kirsten, and say, oh, I'll get back to you. But is there someone you recommend as a guest on this podcast?

[48:05] Kirsten: Oh, wow. Just watching all the variety of people on, you know, Instagram trying to grow and develop and share what nursing is. But I think there's a few that still stand out. I don't know if you've heard of Debriefing the Front Lines, but I've been a fan of just watching how they put their message out to support other nurses. Right. And to support that idea that sometimes we have to talk about things and not just shove it down, which I think has been a pathway that nurses have taken many times in their lives. So I really enjoy Debriefing the Front Lines.

[48:48] Michelle: I could not agree with you more. And you're actually the second person to recommend Debriefing the Front Lines. And interestingly, Tara and I had an appointment to record, and then she got sick and had to cancel. And so we're currently trying to reschedule, you know, with all of our busy schedules. But, yeah, I am so excited to interview Tara. I think their organization is amazing. What they're doing is amazing. And I've taken several of their continuing education classes. I took Ego Death of the ICU Nurse, and then their latest one, that the name is escaping me right now. And they're excellent. They are. I highly recommend them. And they're very affordable. So, yeah, I agree with you there. I'm still trying to get Tara and I will keep working on that.

[49:46] Kirsten: So exciting.

[49:48] Michelle: Yeah. Well, Kirsten, where can we find you?

[49:52] Kirsten: Well, I am on Instagram, @FerrenKirsten. It's my last name and then my first name. I have a website which is still a work in progress, which is nursinginferno.com. And one day, I will have all the time in the world to make site amazing. So if you go there, just, you know, be patient. And. And those are my two main places. I do keep a set of listings on StatPD, and so you can always find me there under my name as well.

[50:23] Michelle: Yay. Well, thank you so much for that. And I will put those in the show notes so that people can find you. But, wow, this has been a really stimulating conversation today. Kirsten, I'm so happy that we got to talk.

[50:38] Kirsten: Thank you so much for having me, Michelle. I have really enjoyed this, too.

[50:43] Michelle: Yes. Well, I think as we are talking right now, the solar eclipse is happening very soon, so there's been a lot of buzz about that.

[50:55] Kirsten: Well, hopefully the sun came out. Yeah.

[50:59] Michelle: Oh, well, we're at the end, so we're ready for the five-minute snippet. Are you ready for just five minutes of pure fun?

[51:07] Kirsten: Okay, I'm. I'm ready. We'll see how it goes.

[51:11] Michelle: You know what's so funny, Kirsten, is some of the more high-powered leaders are so intimidated by the five-minute snippet, and it's just five minutes of fun. So you're going to do fine, I swear. Okay, here we go. Who would you choose if you could be any fictional character for a day?

[51:42] Kirsten: I want to be Wonder Woman.

[51:46] Michelle: Aren't you already Wonder Woman?

[51:50] Kirsten: Maybe. Maybe not enough. I just. You know everything about Wonder Woman. That is what I aspire to.

[51:58] Michelle: I love it. I grew up on Wonder Woman, so that's great. Okay. If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?

[52:07] Kirsten: I really love those cherry blossom trees. Like, just, I know they only are pink and amazing for a super short amount of time, but there is nothing more beautiful than walking down the street and seeing those cherry blossom trees.

[52:27] Michelle: I have to agree with you there. That would be lovely. Okay, this next question just cracked me up, so I'm going to try to read it without laughing. Okay. Would you rather fight one horse-sized duck or a hundred duck-sized horses? Is that the most silly thing you've ever heard?

[52:53] Kirsten: I think I have to go with the first because I think 100 horses, even if they're teeny, just be so complicated.

[53:02] Michelle: I'm laughing so hard right now. I have to ask this one to my grandkids and see what they say. Would you rather never be able to use your smartphone again or watch TV again?

[53:16] Kirsten: I would rather not watch TV again than be without my smartphone.

[53:22] Michelle: Oh, my gosh. I know, right? This is what I say. I get a twofer out of this. I said I could watch TV on my smartphone.

[53:31] Kirsten: Right?

[53:34] Michelle: Right. Okay. If you had to choose between being a giant hamster or a tiny elephant, which would you choose?

[53:45] Kirsten: Oh, I would have to be a tiny elephant. Elephants, I think, are my spirit animal.

[53:52] Michelle: I love it. They're good luck, right?

[53:54] Kirsten: Yes. And you know what? There's something about elephants being leaders that there's, like, a whole world out there about people who study elephant leadership. So just, you know, just FYI.

[54:07] Michelle: Love it. Love it. Okay. Do you have a favorite food?

[54:13] Kirsten: Sushi.

[54:17] Michelle: Where do you live?

[54:19] Kirsten: I live on the Oregon coast.

[54:21] Michelle: Is there a good sushi place around there?

[54:24] Kirsten: Lots of good sushi places, and there is lots of fresh seafood. So you can even make your own sushi.

[54:31] Michelle: Yes. Love it. Okay, favorite travel destination?

[54:37] Kirsten: Oh, I'm gonna be so boring and say my own home. I am not a huge traveler, but I love making my home the place where I just want to go. It's like my little sanctuary. I just. We're in the process of buying a new home, and I just can't wait to get started in creating it. Kind of my place.

[55:03] Michelle: Are we sisters? Kirsten, I swear, I'm like you. And you know what? I'm. I'm just saying. Going to be unapologetic about it now, because I think there's, like, a big misconception when you tell people, like, I don't really love traveling, you know? And it's just, like, people are aghast with, like, really? And I have traveled, and I do enjoy it when I do, but if I have the chance, like, I just want to stay home. Yeah.

[55:31] Kirsten: I don't know what it is about that. My sister is a huge traveler, and she just recently got to come home from Africa, and I was very happy to just stay home, look at her pictures, take care of things here while she did that. And I don't know if it's. It's not that I don't like going places like you. I do. But I think when I think about the money, I think about how can I make my own oasis and have that every day.

[56:03] Michelle: Mm hmm. Okay, last question. Would you rather take a hike or walk on the beach?

[56:12] Kirsten: Oh, I'd always choose the beach. I love it here. I love the beach. I love the ocean. I love walking on it. I would choose that every day.

[56:22] Michelle: Well, you're living in the right place for it, right?

[56:25] Kirsten: Yeah, definitely.

[56:26] Michelle: Well, this has been so much fun. I so appreciate you coming on today and having fun in the five-minute snippet and sharing your journey as a leader. And I just think that I have learned so much from you, and I've been so inspired by you, Kirsten, and so thank you so much.

[56:49] Kirsten: Oh, thank you, Michelle. It's been so fun talking to you, and I look forward to seeing more of what you do online all the time. Fine.

[56:57] Michelle: Thank you so much. We'll get out there and see that eclipse.

[57:01] Kirsten: Okay.

[57:01] Michelle: Thank you.

[57:02] Kirsten: Have a good day.