NICU Nurse Manager, Felicia Torres Vaughn

[00:00] Michelle: According to Forbes magazine, the relationship between managers and their employees has a significant impact on their mental health, similar to the effect of a partner. My guest this week, NICU nurse manager Felicia Torres Vaughn, understands this and works hard to build strong relationships with her staff. During our conversation, Felicia clarified some common misconceptions about managers and emphasized the importance of mentorship. She also encouraged the idea of embracing failure as it provides an opportunity to learn and grow. I've had many mentors throughout my journey and Felicia taught me a valuable lesson on what it means to be a compassionate and thoughtful leader. She does this most profoundly by example, not expecting her staff to do anything she wouldn't do herself. As she spoke of her love for Mother Teresa, I noticed similarities in their service mindset, humble spirit, and desire to bring love and light to the people they serve. Her advice for nurses who aspire to be leaders: find a mentor and be a mentor. In the five-minute snippet, start spreading the news.  Well, good afternoon, Felicia. Welcome to the podcast and to my closet recording studio.

[01:43] Felicia: I love it. It's not what I imagined, but I love it.

[01:47] Michelle: It's the infamous closet of dolls. I think a few guests have been a little bit freaked out. Yeah. But it works for me. So I'm really glad that you joined me today. I retired two years ago, a little over two years ago, and started the podcast about a year and a half ago. And when I left, I said, I'm going to have you as a guest on my podcast. And you're so sweet and you smile and you're like, yeah, and I was like, yeah, she probably doesn't believe me, but just got busy with lots of other things. And every time I saw you at a function, I was like, I'm still going to have you on and you're like, okay, so we finally made it happen.

[02:35] Felicia: Absolutely.

[02:36] Michelle: I'm really happy that you're here. And so we're going to start just with an introduction and our audience is mostly nurses. So just pretend that you're talking to a room full of nurses and what do they want to know about nurse managers and about you? So just start by telling us why you became a nurse and a little bit about your history, where you've worked, and then what you're doing now.

[03:02] Felicia: I fell into nursing. Believe it or not, when I was in high school, I had a girlfriend of mine convince me to take a CNA course, and it wasn't something I wanted to do. I was always very athletic and played a lot of sports, but in my senior year, I decided I wasn't going to play any sports. And so she convinced me to take this TCOVE nursing program. So I took it with her, finished the program and was certified. We got certified, and then that was it. I didn't have an immediate attraction to it. It was something that I did with her for fun. We got to go to Lindsay Hospital back in 1990, and we did our rotation there by a lady by the name of Barbara Strong. She was a nurse, a well-known nurse to me. She was my CNA instructor, and that was it. We finished the program. I put my little CNA certificate in my back pocket and graduated high school and went to college and didn't really know what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to help people and work with people, but I didn't know to what capacity. And so I just kind of trucked along. I was 20 now, a couple of years later, and thought, I have this CNA certification, maybe I should try something in the nursing field. So I took a job at a convalescent hospital in Tulare and fell in love with nursing, fell in love with my geriatric population, mostly because you just love to talk to me. I just wanted to talk to people and know people. And those patients that were there that had good cognition, of course, they just loved all of the CNAs that were there. They became your family because you were there all the time. And then I said, oh, yeah, this is what I want to do. I want to be a nurse. So I applied to the hospital in Visalia, Kaweah Delta, at the time, and it probably took me two years to get in. So I worked at this convalescent hospital for two years and did my time in that work environment. I got hired at Kaweah Delta as a float pool CNA and hated it. I was so sad. I was a lot of times assigned as a house orderly, which I absolutely was scared to death of because we had to respond to codes and take dead adult people to the morgue. But I got to know a lot of people in different areas, and I floated to pediatrics, where I met you, and I floated to labor and delivery, where I met a lot of people. And I decided that that was the area that I wanted to work in. So at my earliest convenience, it was one year, and Cathy Broderick was my supervisor, and I told her, I'm going to transfer and I'm going to apply somewhere else. I got hired to labor and delivery, believe it or not, as a nurse and they overhired and so they told me, hey, listen, we hired you to labor and delivery, but we're really going to put you on mom/baby. So I worked on mom/baby as a nurse aide and I've been in maternal child health ever since I went back to school, became an LVN, and then worked on mom/baby there as an LVN and had to float to Peds and did I so.  I was scared to death when I floated to Peds as a nurse and my personality is to challenge where I feel I had weakness. And so I transferred my nursing position to Peds and fell in love with that patient population and have been in the pediatric neonatal population ever since. Went back to school, got my RN, and have been an RN for 23 years. So, yeah, it's gone by quickly. It really does.

[06:59] Michelle: And there's so many similarities about that story. So I interviewed a great mother/baby nurse on the podcast, Tammy Dunehew.

[07:10] Felicia: Yes, I saw her.

[07:11] Michelle: Yeah. And you guys both your, she, a friend talked her into it, too. As you were talking, I was like, I wonder if her friend was Tammy Dunehew.

[07:20] Felicia: No, but we worked together on mom/baby, me and Tammy. Yeah, same thing.

[07:24] Michelle: And I love hearing the stories of how nurses get into nursing and we always think it's something really lofty and sometimes it's just a flute.

[07:36] Felicia: Yeah, absolutely.

[07:38] Michelle: So that's great. Yeah, that's a great story. And we go way back to Peds. Now, you're a nurse manager of a neonatal intensive care unit. And so when did you know you wanted to become a nurse manager? Was there a time or did the position just come open and you're like being the personality that, hey, I want to challenge myself. Did you say, I'm going to go for that? How did that happen?

[08:09] Felicia: I feel like, for me, I always felt like I've always enjoyed challenge. I have always prospered in challenging times. Whether I've coped with challenges appropriately is a whole nother story, but I've found a lot of personal growth in that time. So nursing leadership probably wasn't something that was on my mind early in my career, but when I was in the NICU, I had wonderful women mentors throughout my whole nursing shared, you know, Barbara Strong, Cathy Broderick, Chris Robertson from Peds, our friend Annita, you as a mentor, Dawn Parsley, Di Hoffman, you know, even Linda Stewart as our director, Tracy Sherman now. Just wonderful women who always challenged me or saw something in me that allowed me the ability to say, I can do that, or I want to try that. So leadership, I felt, for me, just kind of evolved from being a staff nurse to a charge nurse to an opportunity to want to provide the same safe space that all of these other women provided for me. That's really what had been my attraction to leadership, was to really help elevate other people the way people elevated me and saw potential in me. And so that was the attraction. And a position did become available, and I applied, and I didn't get it. And like a lot of things in my life, I feel like the second time around, I've done better. Marriage is one of them, but in this situation as well. And it just wasn't the right time for me. And I think maybe for a lot of people when you get shot down from something that you feel you're meant for, it can be really earth-shattering. It's a hit to your ego. And I felt like, for me, it just wasn't my time. It was an opportunity to grow a little more and be more aware of leadership before I'm going to apply for it again. And that's just like I shared, that's kind of my personality, where there's something that I feel can be a challenge. It just promotes me to want to do more. So when the opportunity arose again, I took it, and I took it in an interim position because I was scared. I'm not scared, but I was a little scared and intimidated. The previous leadership team before me left, and there wasn't anybody to teach me. And so that was my scaredness in accepting the position. And then the director said, no, you've done intern now, interim for six months. You have to make a decision. So I took the decision, and in April, it'll be ten years that I've been in a formal leadership role.

[11:09] Michelle: Wow.

[11:10] Felicia: Yeah. And it's been great. It's not easy. It's not easy to be the middleman, but it is rewarding. And I'm in it for the sense that because I want to bring opportunity to other nurses, that really is my whole goal in being a leader, is helping other people the way other people helped me.

[11:31] Michelle: I think that's so great. And the spirit of mentorship is so strong with you. And whatever position you are in, you are always a mentor to others. As you were talking, I remembered that I just had an interview with a CRNA who has her own CRNA school prep for students who want to get into CRNA. And she told the story of one student that came to her and, you know, I don't know why I didn't get into this school, because I have the GPA, I have the experience, I have the credentials and I interviewed, but they didn't accept me. And so Jenny, who is the CRNA, said, well, did you get any feedback from the school? And she said no, but she asked for it. And so the school said, basically we thought you were too cocky. You came off too cocky, and if you're too cocky, we can't teach you well. It was like this teachable moment where she had to gain some emotional intelligence and insight into her own behavior because she said, I don't know how they thought that. I'm totally not like that at all. But she took a year and she really delved into herself and got to know herself a lot better and then interviewed again and she got in. And so sometimes just hearing your story of like, I didn't get it the first time, that's a moment where you step back and you go, okay, I have an opportunity here to learn more about myself, about the job, the responsibilities, whatever it is, and go for it.

[13:22] Felicia: Right? And I like to share that with people when they come and speak to me about, I don't know, various things. I think that you can be more relatable to people when you share that you're not a perfect person. That, at least for me, other things that were really devastating to me was the first time I took my certification in neonatal intensive care, I failed and it was all me. It was bad timing, but it was all me. I was not prepared. And so as I foster a unit where it's mandatory for us to have certification, it's a really scary thing for nurses when they say, oh my gosh, my time is up, I know you're going to be asking me about certification. I share that story with them and say it's okay if you fail because it really puts you in a frame of mind to grow and learn. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to pass the first time, but I didn't and it was okay. I'm still the same practitioner I am because I didn't pass the first time. So I think sharing your failures is really important as a leader because you can be more relatable and you also can have more empathy and compassion for people and their struggles and what they're doing in everything. Because if you're going to set the precedence that I'm superior and that I do everything right. You're not going to gain the confidence of the people that you want to lead.

[14:58] Michelle: Totally true.

[14:59] Felicia: Yeah. Don't like to share all my failures, but I share them openly because it's not a bad thing. It's not terrible.

[15:08] Michelle: Yeah, exactly. You're saying I'm human, fallible. And I think when you were talking about being scared when you took that position, it's like the true meaning of grit is being scared shitless and doing it anyway, right? It's like just pushing out of that fear. And so many people can relate to that in life, whatever it is, becoming a new nurse, landing your new job, you're just so scared because you don't know anything, right? But you're like, I'm just going to do this. And that's how we learn and grow. Those are great. Okay, so let's talk about, and my listeners know, because I talk about it all the time, that I'm a big fan of professional organizations. And so I saw that there are a couple for nurse leaders. There's the American Organization for Nurse Leadership, and the Association of California Nurse Leaders. But just talk for a moment about the value of professional organizations and what they bring to the nurse and what they bring to institutions.

[16:19] Felicia: I think for the nurse, they really help you be more professional. And I don't mean like, speak to the parents or in our case, the parents. If you're an adult nurse, a patient, not that piece of being professional, but more a professional in that this is your big girl job, that you're a professional. Maybe you don't wear a suit and carry a laptop to work every day, but that the actual profession of being a nurse, it just helps you be more rounded in who you are. It also gives you a good basis to be able to get new ideas, at least for a leader. I think there are certain things that you should always have on your mind. You should always be wanting to challenge the status quo. And when you're part of an organization, you have the opportunity to see what other leaders, other organizations, what they're challenging, how they're growing, how they're changing, how they're doing things through evidence-based practice. Where when you're not a part of those organizations, you're a little bit in the dark. You don't know what's on the cusp of change and technology. And so being a part of those types of organizations helps you stay curious and open-minded and challenging. Why do I do this the way I do it? Is this just my organization's policy, or is this best practice? So those things really help you become more professional in what you do?

[17:51] Michelle: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And I was a member of NANN, the National Association of Neonatal Nurses, for over ten years. And I think just the resources that you get. When I was learning about developmental care, I didn't know anything about it, so I became a member of NANN. And then, man, so many resources, so it really helped me learn. And then networking, just connections with other nurses that are doing the same thing as you, and it's just a lot of value. And I'm going to put those in the show notes so people can check those out. One of the pleasures that I had as a NICU nurse was being on interview panels to be a part of hiring new staff for the NICU. And so I came across this article, and it's from the Full Focus newsletter. That's by Michael Hyatt. And he's pretty popular out there in the coaching world. He has a coaching company where he coaches high-level executives. You might have heard of him. But one of the articles is, Don't Hire People Unless the Batteries are Included. And I love it because it's an analogy that we can all understand, people with batteries, people without batteries. And so one of the things that he says in his article is that people who don't come with their own batteries, create and enjoy drama. They gossip and backbite. They complain about everything. They don't accept responsibility. It's never my fault why I was late, why I didn't take this test, and they need constant supervision. So talk about how important it is to really hire the right people.

[19:45] Felicia: That's definitely a challenge for anybody that hires people, whether in a professional career or even at the fast food joint down the street because you can be anybody you want to be in an interview. You really can present yourself one way and turn out to be someone without batteries. But for me, it's just really a matter of asking in-the-moment questions like what their experience is. And sometimes you think someone's a good fit and they're not. I remember somebody that we recently hired maybe a year ago who shared with me at an interview. So, number one, she was a nursing student during COVID none of her clinicals were with real people. It was all simulation. And so during the interview, she shared that it was really foreign to her to touch another person.

[20:41] Michelle: Wow.

[20:42] Felicia: And it was shocking to me to hear her say that, because not only do I touch people all the time at work, we see people in really vulnerable positions. Right. Having a baby, putting their baby to breast, you don't get to see those things in everyday life. So for me, it was really mind-boggling that she said that to me, it was a red flag that I didn't see. But she shared that she was nervous about touching other people, especially a baby. She had never had a baby herself. None of her sisters or brothers or anybody she hadn't taken. She was so intimidated. But everything else was great. Top of the class, part of organizations. She was already associated with a nursing organization, very well put together, but she didn't make it. And so it was difficult for me because I knew that the red flag was there, but everything else looked good, but she couldn't make it. It was too much for her. And so when interviewing people, there are a lot of things to keep in mind. Yes. Those things that you mentioned in the article are important, but really, I feel like for me, when I'm looking to hire people, it's not even about retention anymore. It's really about being open to learning and being a kind human. As basic as that sounds, school gets you far. Yeah, because you have to be willing to work with a diverse group of people in our unit, and I'm sure, like a lot of other units, we have a wide range of age groups. We have people on their way to their. Our nursing team right now. So there's all different kinds of people working. And so for me, it's just really important to be, like I said, kind to be open to learning, because everything else we can teach you. And so that's a challenge because, like I said, you can present yourself anyway in an interview. Your true colors really do come out once you're on the floor. And those conversations are difficult to have when you meet someone who's not meeting your unit's expectations, which we've had to have.

[22:55] Michelle: Yes. And that's a part of emotional intelligence. And emotional intelligence is really in the press right now a lot, and we're really focusing on that a lot. And actually, on Friday, I'm going to interview a specialist on emotional intelligence because it's just so interesting. But again, it's like, people can interview really well, and as you said, in real practice, it doesn't turn out the same. And I've been on interview panels where I can remember one particular individual that looked great on paper and had good interview skills as far as how she talked and everything, but she was scantily dressed, where it's like, there's a lot of press out there on interviews and don't wear this to an interview. So I think a lot of us were really skeptical, but she was hired, and she's been fantastic. So I'm glad that we didn't miss out on her because we judged her for what she wore. But it's just kind of like, what are you thinking? Yeah, it's funny. So when you became a nurse manager, you said, I didn't really have anybody available to me to take me through the ropes. But what resources are available to new managers? If somebody is a staff nurse and they're interested in that and they want to step up and do that, what can they expect in terms of resources that are available to them?

[24:34] Felicia: I think one thing is to find a mentor, someone who's already a leader that you say, I want to be like that, or, I admire these characteristics of this person that's always available, but you should seek that person out and make sure that they are willing to be a mentor to you. And if you have that person, then you have a colleague that you can go to to show me this. Show me that. There's a lot of resources. There are a lot of books, two of them that I shared with you for your bookstore. There's all kinds of stuff, all kinds of stuff on the Internet, all kinds of management type of resources out there for people to learn. But really, I think having a mentor, if you can find someone that is willing to mentor you, that's your best resource to be successful. I didn't necessarily have a mentor when I accepted. Know our administrative secretary, Anabel Lamb. She taught me how to do all kinds of stuff, and then our director was Regina Sawyer. And she would tell me to go do something and I would do it. But she paired me with Tracy Sherman, who, honestly, I was scared to death of because she wasn't warm and fuzzy the way I wanted or imagined a mentor to be for me. But she turned out to be the most phenomenal mentor I've had since, and she is dear to my heart. She was great, but I had to overcome my preconceived notions of her.

[26:13] Michelle: Yeah, well, it's true. And we've had other directors, and I don't know if that's something that I haven't interviewed a director yet, but I'm going to. She said yes, and she's from Kaweah Health. So I don't know if that's something particular to a director where they are kind of removed a little bit. But I feel like to get in that director position, you have had to be a great mentor along the way to many people.

[26:46] Felicia: Yeah, absolutely.

[26:48] Michelle: Again, sometimes our expectations are one thing and then what happens in reality is another. And you had a great experience. So we are going to talk for a second about how important managers are. And until I saw this, I didn't know. And I actually saw this on Good Morning America. They did a piece on this. And so I looked up the article. This was an article in Forbes magazine, 2023. And what they did was they cited a study done by the workforce institute at UKG, which I didn't know what that was, but it's the Ultimate Kronos Group.

[27:25] Felicia: Oh, that's what that stands for. Okay.

[27:29] Michelle: Yes. Okay. So I had to Google, what is UKG? The study was of 3400 people across 10 countries. What they found was nearly 70% of people said their managers had the greatest impact on their mental health, which was on par with their partner.

[27:48] Felicia: Wow.

[27:49] Michelle: And this was more than the impact of their doctor, which was listed at 51%, or their therapist at 41.

[27:58] Felicia: Wow. We have all this influence. 

[28:01] Michelle: And they said that the seven crucial approaches for leaders to be their best. So for leaders to be their best. And you can talk to some of these, number one, manage yourself. Two, realize your impact. Three, give people a reason to care. Four, connect people. Five, provide challenge. Six, give people choice. And seven, stay healthy.

[28:28] Felicia: Yeah, I like all of those. I agree.

[28:32] Michelle: So, yeah. Can you speak to those and what you've done for yourself to kind of address those?

[28:39] Felicia: I think the biggest one that stands out to me is realizing your impact. I had a situation a couple of years ago where some decisions that I made in the unit really affected some of the staff to the point of serious unhappiness. When I realized that my decision made these nurses feel the way they did, I quickly approached them and said, let me explain. I understand this is how you, it's come to my attention, this is how you feel. My intention was not to hurt your feelings based on what I decided to do. And I apologized and said that wasn't my intention to hurt you. And so realizing your impact is big. And that lesson in my almost ten years of leadership has come around a few times. And it's like you always need a reminder of the impact you have. I can remember another situation a little more specifically where it was a busy day in the unit. I had a patient assignment and the admin nurse had gone to a delivery and it was a fetal demise. But we were busy and I was doing my work, I had to work in the unit. And she came to me. The code was done. She came back to the unit, and I was doing something, and she was standing next to me, and I said, how did it go? And she says, oh, we did a debrief. And it was sad and all that stuff. And I was like, oh, man, I'm sorry about that. I'm busy doing my work. And she said to me, what do you think if I took a personal day tomorrow? We're busy. The unit's busy. I didn't have the emotional intelligence to realize what she was telling me at that moment in time. And I laughed. I chuckled. Yeah, right. I'm working in the unit and you want to take tomorrow off? And I finished my work. The next day, I came to work, and she called out sick, and it was like, a sack of bricks hit me. Of course, she just experienced something really terrible, and I didn't see that. I was only focused on myself. And the impact my reaction had on her, I'm sure was awful. When she went home, she was probably like, my boss is an asshole. She didn't see me. And so when I say I didn't have the emotional intelligence to see her, I didn't. I was focused on myself and what I was doing. And so realizing your impact has come to me in a couple of lessons that way. So, yeah, it's important to be mindful of how you see and do things and how you respond to people. I've been better about not responding as quickly to people because of that.

[31:35] Michelle: Taking that pause.

[31:36] Felicia: Yeah, taking that pause and saying, I need to think about that, or let me get back to you because, in the three situations that I can remember, it's turned out bad when I've had to go. Definitely managing yourself as well is really knowing your limits. Like I said, being more smart about how to respond to people and read people, because sometimes they come to you saying one thing, but they really mean something else. So understanding yourself and how you view things. I have always had great leadership partners, but one of them being Irene Price, where she was a good soundboard for me because I would go to her and say, help me understand this, because I feel this way, but I know the team feels different. Help me understand what their point of view is. And so knowing yourself and how to react, just because I think it should be this way doesn't mean it should be that way for them. So definitely managing yourself is important. Otherwise, it becomes a dictatorship of, this is my unit, these are my rules, and these are the way these things are going to happen. Giving people a reason to care, man, my unit is easy to do. I share with people during interviews, because a lot of times people will say, why do you work here? What's the best thing about working here? And my response is always the same. It's that I get to be a part of someone's special story that's really special. When you go out in public and someone comes up to you and says, oh, my gosh, you were my baby's nurse. And I'm like, I was? A lot of times we don't remember. Absolutely. So it's easy to give people a reason to care in our unit. Having a child is mostly a precious moment, and we get to see people in their happiest moments and sometimes in their worst moments. A lot of people don't anticipate their baby being sick or coming to the NICU. And so we get to be a part of someone's story, whether it's good or bad. But we're there. And so it's easy, at least I feel, in our area of nursing, to give people a reason to care.

[33:51] Michelle: How do you stay healthy? What do you do for self-care?

[33:55] Felicia: I'm not always great at that, but now that I'm middle-aged, right, I'm better in this decade of my life, now that I'm middle-aged, my mantra has been to be at peace with who I am, what I am, how I look, how I respond to people. And that's hard to do. And it's taken me all these years to figure that piece out. Mental health is so important. Physical health is so important. I exercise as best I can. I'm happy when I can get four days in, but three days, my best, I'm like, three days is good. Four days is excellent.

[34:36] Michelle: Two days and you're really grouchy, right? 

[34:40] Felicia: Exactly. I like to exercise. I like to work on my plants and redo plant repotting. I like to listen to podcasts. I like to look at leadership videos. I've really liked the LinkedIn opportunities that we have to see videos there. Our organization is using something called Open Sesame right now, and they have a lot of leadership modules there. So those kinds of things, I think, keep you level-headed. And then, like I said, just being at peace with who I am and what I say and how I look and what I do, it's easy to say. It's hard to do. But when I remind myself every day that that's what this decade of my life is going to be about, it's actually been okay. So far.

[35:27] Michelle: Well, you're gaining wisdom, right? And I just feel like the older that you get, the more wisdom you gain, and you find yourself saying a lot like, God, I wish I knew this ten years.

[35:41] Felicia: No kidding.

[35:42] Michelle: I wish I wasn't so hard on myself five years ago. And you're more into your own, and you really like the person that you are. And that negative self-talk gets less and less.

[35:57] Felicia: Absolutely.

[35:58] Michelle: Until you're just like, yeah, I'm good. Yeah. Well, that was a really interesting Forbes article, and I will definitely put that in the show notes, too. So let's switch for a moment and talk about the patients. Let's talk about patient rounding. So as a manager, you do this periodically, and I don't know what your schedule is, if you do it daily or weekly, but you go around to all the patients and you talk to the parents. And so tell me, what is the goal? What is the benefit? Just talk to that for a moment.

[36:31] Felicia: Patient rounding, I think, is beneficial for the whole entire team. It's a great way to connect with the parents to know that really, there's an entire team of people taking care of their baby and even on the adult floors for the managers that do rounding on the adult units, for me, I probably do it more like once a week. Our parents get seen by the mom-baby manager. So I always feel like when there's still a patient in the hospital, I don't want to be another layer of somebody to meet. I usually wait till they're discharged from the hospital or like, with some of our really small babies, I'll even wait a couple of weeks. I see them all the time in the unit. I hear them at the scrub sink. I'll go out there and introduce myself to them. But it's just important for them to know that there's all these people caring for them and that I'm kind of a happy medium between the nurse and the physician. A lot of times, it's just, how's your day going? Do you feel like the physician's answering your questions and it just kind of opens up to bigger conversation? But it really is important to connect with them so that they know that there are lots of people caring for their baby and that they feel heard. Because we didn't do those things 15-20 years ago, it wasn't intentional rounding. We rounded with people when there was a problem, not just to touch base and connect with people.

[38:00] Michelle: I think it's watching it in process. I think it was so beneficial because when there's a problem, what's the first thing people want to know who's in charge?

[38:14] Felicia: Yeah.

[38:14] Michelle: And on the other side of that, if there's a celebration, if they have witnessed something that they feel really special about, the other thing they want to do is, I want to know who's in charge so I can tell them about this, what a great team you have or whatever. So you have the benefit of getting both of that. And I know the parents were very appreciative just to know that you're there. You're in their corner. Like you said, your office is very close to the scrub sink, so, sure, you got to overhear. And sometimes parents need to go between the nurse and the physician, or there's conflict, and that's normal. So I think that's a great benefit that you provide, and I know nurse managers in many institutions do that because they've seen the benefit that it does reduce conflict. If knowing right away I'm here, talk about what your challenges are, all of that stuff. So let's talk about vision because I would call you a visionary, and I will say that we had a disagreement on a vision of yours, and this was when we were building the new unit. So we were going from an open room, an open bay NICU, which is dreadful, to single family rooms, which we all were very excited and welcoming. That. And one of your requirements was that all the staff have the same competencies, that they all had the same certifications, that they were all able to take care of a baby, whether that baby was a growing preemie, whether that baby was a sick full-term infant, whether that baby was on a drip or a ventilator, an oscillator, whatever it was. And I disagreed with you because I felt like some nurses are strong in certain areas and not as strong in other areas, but they're still great nurses with a certain population. So once it came true that we moved to the new unit, I had an aha moment where I was like, oh, all right. And I don't know if I ever said that to you. I see now where you were coming from, but this is my opportunity.

[41:02] Felicia: Yeah. It was a difficult time for those nurses that didn't join the vision. That's part of challenging your team to grow. And some people are comfortable. I'm going to say stagnant, but I don't mean it stagnant in a bad way.

[41:19] Michelle: Right.

[41:20] Felicia: It's that they've reached their capacity, and they feel that this is where they shine, which they do. Some people are really great at growing babies. But it didn't make sense in our new environment. And that was a challenging time for me because I knew we would lose people. And these were people that were well-liked by our entire team. And it was difficult. And then it turns into, you didn't want me to stay. You pushed me out of the nest, and you have to take that with a grain of salt, and that's hard. I'm a pretty emotional person. I really do love people, Michelle. It's something that's in me. I'm not someone that's like, oh, you got to prove to me. I'm just, like, automatically give you credit. And whether that's good or bad, that's me. And so it's hard. That was hard. That was a difficult transition. Even though it was the right thing to do, it didn't come without pain on my end as well, because we lost.

[42:25] Michelle: We knew that it did pain you. The people who were closest to you knew that it was not an easy decision, but for the layout, it was so necessary.

[42:36] Felicia: Yeah, absolutely.

[42:37] Michelle: So necessary. And the other thing is that some people really don't appreciate change. They like, like you said, the status quo. They like where they are in life, where they are in their job. They're feeling competent, they're feeling confident about their skills. They're, like, at the top of their game. And now we're going to introduce something else to you, and I don't know if I can do that right. And some people were able to, again, have grit and be scared, but do it anyway. And some people were not. Yeah, but I appreciated that about you, that your vision because you can only see that if you're with somebody for a long time. And that process to get our unit took a hell of a long time. So I was glad that I was there all the way through that, and I could see, all right, see the fruit at the end. Now I know why she did that. Well, let's talk about some traits. So what is the most crucial trait that somebody in your role needs to possess?

[43:52] Felicia: Gosh, I would say definitely. Flexibility, empathy, compassion, and the ability to understand and promote people. Otherwise, you're not doing the leadership role service. I really believe that that's what leadership should be about, to be able to go home when I'm done with my job and trust my team, not micromanage them, because I don't trust them. And so I think those are characteristics that are important to any leadership role, is to build your team so that you have their confidence and they have your confidence, and you can only do that through showing your team how to do things the right way and by being transparent with the things that you've not done right and that you want for your team. You just have to have those things. You can be more of a dictator manager and things will get done, but your team won't grow. And at least for me, that's all I've ever wanted, was to grow people. I'm not going to be in this position forever. I don't want to be in this position forever. Believe it or not, I can see myself doing something different, and I want to know that there's someone in the unit who is going to take over and have the same desires that I have had to want to grow the department. And that's through partnership, and that's through finding people. Everybody's got a talent. Everybody brings something to the table. Some people bring more things, but everybody brings something to the table. I can honestly say that about our team right now. There isn't one person right now that I feel doesn't bring something to the table. We just don't. We don't have that team right now. And that's a great feeling.

[46:03] Michelle: That's a great place to be. And I think one of the ways that you've really shined is that you've been the example of what you want your team to be. One of the ways that you've done that is by jumping in, changing into scrubs, or half the time you came in to work in scrubs and being a part of the team, the care team, taking a patient assignment, being the Admit nurse for the day, going to deliveries, recovering babies because of short staffing or whatever. And I felt like whenever I would be on the unit, being the break nurse or whatever, and the nurses would just be so like, man, we have the best managers because they're in it. They see the need and they're in it, and they live it the same as us. And to have someone beside you who is your colleague, but also your superior, doing the same things that you do, it's just so comforting to your staff.

[47:18] Felicia: I always feel that for me, in my leadership role, I'm not going to ask my staff to do anything I'm not going to do. And so if I'm going to ask my staff to go to deliveries and take care of sick babies, there isn't a division of type of nurses, then I have to be able to do the same. I take all the same tests that all my staff nurses take. I do all the competencies I go to all the workshops because I can't expect them to do what I'm not willing to do. And so that's been something that I've felt really strongly about. There have been leaders before me that weren't that way, and the units ran fine. Right. I didn't have any less respect for them, but it was something that was important to me as a leader to be able to do and to be able to show my staff through example.

[48:12] Michelle: And it speaks volumes because that is not the behavior of so many leaders. And they know that too, because they've worked other areas, they've worked other units, and there's maybe two or three units where the managers actually jump in and do that. And I just think that says so much to the nurses. So that's really cool. Was there something that you wish that you knew before you became a manager?

[48:42] Felicia: Yeah, to be quiet, which I've learned now. Yeah. I wished I had known ten years ago to listen better and not respond so quickly. That really has been such a tool. And when I learned that, it was so much easier for me to just listen and say, I don't know the answer to that, or, I need to think about that, or, let me get back to you about that. I've even said I'm not sure how I feel about that. I need to think about that, and I'll get back to you. I wish I knew that ten years ago.

[49:23] Michelle: It's a great skill in life, right?

[49:25] Felicia: Absolutely.

[49:26] Michelle: Interacting with your husband, your kids. Like, so many times we have conflict because we jump into something, a response, or a misconception, and it makes the other person defensive. And to take that pause, and I've interacted with you many times when I didn't know you were taking that pause, but now when you're describing it, I was like, oh, she's good. Yeah, she's thinking about it. But the other thing with you is I always felt heard, and I think that technique that you use communicates that. That's okay. I don't have to respond right away. I can say, let me take some time to think about that. So that's really powerful.

[50:20] Felicia: It's useful at home, too. Even though my husband says, I didn't know you were the manager today. On a Saturday or Sunday. 

[50:29] Michelle: Great. I love it. What's the biggest misconception that people have about your job?

[50:34] Felicia: That it's easy. 

[50:38] Michelle: I would never think it was easy. I don't know how people could think that.

[50:41] Felicia: I feel like sometimes people feel like it's easy and I have the ability to change things in an instant.

[50:48] Michelle: Okay.

[50:48] Felicia: Because that piece is that. It's easy. Yeah. It's not true, but I feel like I'm really good about communicating that. For example, like, changes to our EMR. It's an easy fix, but it's going to take two months. 

[51:07] Michelle: Do remember QS? It was so great.  No, you have been. And I think that's another great thing, is you have explained some of the processes behind the scenes that we don't see, that we're kind of like, sometimes like the kid, like, why can't we get it? And you're like, well, we have to go through this and this and this and this committee has to, and then this, and then it costs this and the money has to come from here. And I'm sure it could be kind of. What's the word? Monotonous to explain that every time. But when you take the time to talk about the process behind it, it really enlightens us. And we're like, oh, okay. It's not as easy as we thought.

[51:57] Felicia: It's because you don't also want to shoot people down. That's the other thing. Why people don't come to their manager with concerns or maybe a product change, because maybe the nine other times it hasn't happened? And so you still want people to come to you and share. That's why it's important to share the why and the how and all that good stuff.

[52:18] Michelle: Okay, we are getting ready to wrap up. But one of the things that I really wanted to talk about, because I was really interested, is one of your book recommendations is Mother Teresa, Come Be My Light. The Private Writings of the Saint of Calcutta.

[52:35] Felicia: I love Mother Teresa.

[52:37] Michelle: Oh, my God.

[52:37] Felicia: My superhero. I have a picture of her in my office.

[52:40] Michelle: You do?

[52:42] Felicia: In my bookcase. And when I sit at my desk to talk to people, where those two desks are at, she looks at me when I'm talking to people. I just love her. I've had an attraction to her for a long time, and I don't know if it's like I shared. I really feel like I have a heart of love, and I love. And that's Mother Teresa. I mean, she literally just was love. Love will solve anything. But that book is a phenomenal book. Mother Teresa did not write that book. She never wrote anything about herself. Yeah, it was just letters. Yeah, they were letters over 60 years that she shared with her confidants. And I think what the attraction to me of that book is that when we think of Mother Teresa, we think of this saint, this woman who loved the Lord and who loved people. And her whole goal and her mission was to provide for the poor. But in those writings, you find out that she had a lot of darkness in her heart. She had a calling to the Lord at a very young age and had this fire for him very young. And then she had no fire. She couldn't feel him in her life for many years. Through her faith the time that she felt his presence and her faith that she always wanted, she was able to emulate Jesus himself through the things that she did through charity work. And that was so inspiring to me, that someone who felt the presence of the Lord once in her life at a very young age and then had years of not feeling him just by faith, walked that she wanted to continue to have that feeling again. And so that's what those letters reveal. And it's almost for me like, when I read the book originally, I almost felt a little embarrassed that I knew these secrets about her. She obviously passed away before this, but it was published, her intention was never to share those letters. So it was like peeking into someone doing something that they didn't know that I was watching. That's what I mean by I was embarrassed when I. Yeah, exactly. But it really just made me fall in love with her more. I mean, I have had an attraction to her for a very long time just because of our connection through love. I really do feel like she is someone that is so spectacular. She was just a charitable woman, came from a really poor upbringing, and now wanted to serve the Lord, and I love the Lord. I don't have a problem saying I. I'm nowhere near Mother Teresa, but I joke that she's my superhero because I see her every day in my office, and she reminds me of who the person I want to be every day. And through her, I have a good example of who I would love to be. When it comes to communicating with people and finding love in everybody that I come into contact with. We work with a diverse group of people, with all different kinds of personalities. I really feel like I have a connection with everybody for the most part. Maybe not a deep connection, but I know them. I'm genuine when I want to know stuff about your family so that I can have a meaningful relationship with you. And she's someone that reminds me of that every day at work. That's why everything I can read about her, I love to read about her, but that book in particular was very inspirational. That she had this darkness in her and through her faith alone, she just was like, I know what it feels like to have the presence of the Lord, and I'm going to just keep doing that because one of these days I'm going to feel that again.

[56:49] Michelle: It's amazing. And I want to read that because, first of all, I love letters, and I love how what comes out in letters. It's like you're kind of talking to yourself, right? And so I read Meditations a couple of years ago when I started getting into philosophy, and those were the letters. It was the journal of Marcus Aurelius. He was writing to himself every day in his journal. And to see somebody who was so great, such a great emperor, and then having self-doubt, and I think you've brought that light to the NICU, to people that you are in contact with, to the role as the nurse manager, of really wanting to connect, know who people know, ask about their kids. People see you as very competent, and then we hear you still have self-doubt. That's all of us, right? So thank you for sharing that book, and definitely, I made you your bookstore so you guys can check it out on there. Okay. So I'm a nurse. What can I do right now if I have management leadership on my radar, what do I need to start doing?

[58:11] Felicia: You need to start mentoring people. I think that's a great way to learn how to become a manager or a leader through mentorship. I think that that's always a great step in the right direction. You get to build rapport with somebody, but you also get the opportunity to lead and grow someone. And as I've shared through this conversation, that, to me, really is the meaning of being a leader, is growing your people and giving them opportunity. And through mentorship, you can do that. Find a leadership mentor that you want to be like and connect with them. That's always good. That's always a good step in preparing yourself to become a leader.

[58:55] Michelle: Yeah. I've said again, that my listeners have heard me talk about mentorship and the importance of it so much. And of course, in nursing, it's very important. And I feel like in life also, as well, very important. Both of us do volunteer work, and that's a type of mentorship. I've learned from the mentors who were there before me, and hopefully, somebody will learn mentors, too. So that's great. And this question I just recently started asking on the podcast, is there anyone that you would recommend as a guest on this podcast? Oh, nothing like being on the.

[59:42] Felicia: I know. I like your idea of a director.

[59:46] Michelle: She said, yeah.

[59:47] Felicia: Okay. 

[59:48] Michelle: We haven't set a date yet.

[59:49] Felicia: Okay. I think that's good. Gosh, Michelle, I can't think of anybody off the top of my head. I've seen your list of people I've listened to. The podcast I haven't heard all of, like, it was like looking through a yearbook, and you're like, this person. This person. I love the variety you've already interviewed.

[01:00:10] Michelle: Thank you.

[01:00:11] Felicia: It's great.

[01:00:12] Michelle: Thank you. Okay. I did approach a director, and I'm really excited to talk to her because she made some huge changes when she came on as the manager of the Peds unit. And I want to talk to her about that in particular, because those were some big, huge things.

[01:00:37] Felicia: Okay.

[01:00:37] Michelle: How can we find you if our listeners want to get in touch with you, email you anything?

[01:00:44] Felicia: I'm sad to say that I'm not social media savvy. Yeah. I do have a LinkedIn account, so you can find me there.

[01:00:51] Michelle: So I'll put your LinkedIn.

[01:00:52] Felicia: Yes.

[01:00:53] Michelle: Okay, perfect. LinkedIn, I love LinkedIn.

[01:00:56] Felicia: I know. I do, too.

[01:00:57] Michelle: I did not discover it until I started the podcast. And most of my guests come from LinkedIn.

[01:01:03] Felicia: Yeah.

[01:01:03] Michelle: And they find me on LinkedIn.

[01:01:05] Felicia: I created my LinkedIn account as I was preparing to take this certification in nurse executive. Yeah. A couple of years ago.

[01:01:14] Michelle: So I've been preparing for that. Okay. Well, gosh, man, this has been so great. I was so nervous at the beginning of this. I was actually shaking, and my daughter was like, Mom, this is your old friend. You need to chill. And I was like, should I take a shot of tequila? Should I have a glass of wine? She's like, no. So I was pacing around the house, and some of the hardest interviews have been with people that I know really well. So thank you so much for being here today.

[01:01:50] Felicia: Thank you for having me.

[01:01:51] Michelle: Well, we're at the end, so that means the five-minute snippet.

[01:01:54] Felicia: Okay. I'll do my best.

[01:01:56] Michelle: Ready? All right, let me set the timer. And it's fun. We already know you're a lot of fun. Your laugh gives it away. But this is fun for our listeners. So here we go. What instantly makes you not like another person?

[01:02:18] Felicia: Rudeness.

[01:02:20] Michelle: Zero tolerance. Got it. Okay. Would you rather give up your favorite food for a year or give up candy forever?

[01:02:29] Felicia: Oh, favorite food for a year. Easy.

[01:02:33] Michelle: You got to have candy.

[01:02:34] Felicia: I have to have candy. Chocolate, except for chocolate, but I don't eat candy all the time. But I would never not want to eat it ever again. So I could give up food for a favorite.

[01:02:44] Michelle: What's your favorite food?

[01:02:45] Felicia: I don't have a favorite. 

[01:02:48] Michelle: You're like, I could just give up food for a year.

[01:02:51] Felicia: Okay, my favorite probably really is nacho cheese.

[01:02:54] Michelle: Oh, okay. I didn't know that about you.

[01:02:56] Felicia: And hot dogs. 

[01:03:00] Michelle: Wow, Okay. This is a this or that. Roses or tulips?

[01:03:04] Felicia: Roses.

[01:03:06] Michelle: What keeps you up at night?

[01:03:09] Felicia: In my peaceful decade of life? Nothing is keeping me up at night because I'm at peace when I go to bed. I am really embracing that. Yes.

[01:03:20] Michelle: I love that. Okay.

[01:03:21] Felicia: I'm not successful every day, but that's what I do.

[01:03:24] Michelle: For all the younger folks out there, their time is coming. When they're wiser and more at peace, they'll sleep well.

[01:03:33] Felicia: That's right.

[01:03:34] Michelle: Okay. Is there anything that you're superstitious about?

[01:03:38] Felicia: No.

[01:03:39] Michelle: No superstition.

[01:03:40] Felicia: None.

[01:03:41] Michelle: Okay. Would you rather get lost in New York or Los Angeles?

[01:03:46] Felicia: New York, for sure. I love New York. I've been to New York many times.

[01:03:50] Michelle: Your brother's still there?

[01:03:51] Felicia: No, he lives back here now.

[01:03:53] Michelle: Okay.

[01:03:54] Felicia: But I loved all the times I spent with him there. There was never nothing to do. There are people twenty-four seven. I love that place.

[01:04:02] Michelle: It's always awake. Okay. Ocean or lake?

[01:04:07] Felicia: Ocean, for sure.

[01:04:09] Michelle: Well, we have that beautiful Pacific that we're so close to. Just take a two-and-a-half-hour drive and we're there. Would you rather swim in a pool full of Nutella or a pool full of maple syrup?

[01:04:24] Felicia: Well, I'm not a chocolate fan, so not the Nutella. It would have to be the syrup.

[01:04:30] Michelle: I was thinking the syrup, too, because it seems like a really good texture to swim in right? It'd be really sticky once you got out. Were you ever really passionate about something and then just suddenly lost interest in it?

[01:04:49] Felicia: Gosh, I don't want to seem like I don't have passion, but I can't think of something that I had extreme passion for.

[01:04:56] Michelle: Well, you have a lot of passion, right? Like, you're like, I'm going to do this, and then you didn't do it.

[01:05:05] Felicia: Sure. An exercise program.

[01:05:08] Michelle: That counts.

[01:05:09] Felicia: I'm going to do this five days a week. 

[01:05:16] Michelle: Yeah, that didn't happen when I retired. I said, I'm going to go to a 5K once a month and walk a 5K, and it'll be in a different city every time. Have I gone to one 5K? And that was two years ago. Okay. Would you rather have a plant or a goldfish that talks to you?

[01:05:38] Felicia: A plant. I have so many plants. I just counted the plants in my living room. I have 17 plants.

[01:05:43] Michelle: You're a plant mama. Okay. Makeup or no makeup?

[01:05:48] Felicia: Somewhere in the middle.

[01:05:50] Michelle: Maybe just lashes.

[01:05:51] Felicia: Yeah, just lashes. I call it lashlicious. Yeah.

[01:05:55] Michelle: Okay. Would you rather be a contestant on a game show that tests your mental abilities or your physical abilities?

[01:06:04] Felicia: Gosh, I'm a Jeopardy fan, so I do love to watch Jeopardy. And I'm stoked when I get a couple of answers. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm so smart. So I'm going to say my intelligence, but probably the most appropriate one would be my physical strength.

[01:06:24] Michelle: Don't you love it when you get the final jeopardy question right and none of the contestants do you're like, my IQ just went up 20 points. Okay, almost done. What's the most annoying bill you have to pay?

[01:06:39] Felicia: My electric bill.

[01:06:41] Michelle: Right?

[01:06:41] Felicia: I hate it. And I have solar, so the true-up, the end of the year. True-up.

[01:06:46] Michelle: I haven't gotten solar yet because of that. I'm not convinced that it's a big cost saver, so I'm just not convinced yet. Okay, last question. Would you rather always be underdressed or overdressed?

[01:07:01] Felicia: Overdressed.

[01:07:01] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. You're a good dresser, too, and that way you always look professional.

[01:07:08] Felicia: That's right.

[01:07:09] Michelle: Ready to go out rather than in sweats.

[01:07:11] Felicia: Exactly.

[01:07:14] Michelle: That was fun. Thank you. Yeah, you did great.

[01:07:18] Felicia: Okay, good.

[01:07:19] Michelle: Well, thank you again for coming here.

[01:07:23] Felicia: I was nervous, too. I was like, oh, my gosh, she's going to ask me questions. What if I can't think of the right answer?

[01:07:30] Michelle: That's the number one thing from all my guests is like, I'm nervous because I'm afraid I'm not going to know the answer to your question. And because we're talking about you, it's like you're always going to. And I tell them that every time to help calm the nerves, you know, all the answers to the questions that I'm going to ask you because it's about your job.

[01:07:53] Felicia: Yeah, for sure.

[01:07:54] Michelle: And I have not had one guest yet that said, I don't know the answer to that question.

[01:07:59] Felicia: Wow.

[01:08:00] Michelle: So that's really good.

[01:08:01] Felicia: Yeah.

[01:08:02] Michelle: But thanks. And thank you for coming after work today and have a wonderful evening.

[01:08:08] Felicia: Thank you. You too.