Project Management for Nurses with Kevin Pannell

[00:00] Michelle: Today's episode is all about project management. I'm sure many of you have heard of this topic, but what exactly is it? My guest today, Kevin Pannell, breaks it down for us.
Kevin is a project management professional in addition to having over 25 years of experience in leadership roles, critical care, incident command, military service, homeland security, and information technology. By now, you may be wondering what the connection is between project management and nursing.
Well, let's face it, nurses are planners. You plan your care before every shift and are constantly making changes to that plan during your care delivery. So knowing the principles of project management is a great tool to have in your toolbox. But are you also serving on a unit based council or a shared governance committee? Maybe you've volunteered to lead a team on a project. This can be scary because you can hope you know what to do and that it ends well but having actionable plans will ensure your success, and Kevin delivers these expertly.
Kevin is also the host of the popular podcast Hope is NOT a Plan, and through it brings people hope by giving actionable planning steps. As he says after every episode, "Hope is NOT a plan, but a good plan WILL bring people hope."
In the five-minute snippet: gone are the good old days. 
Well, good morning, Kevin. Welcome to the podcast, and thank you for being here.

[01:59] Kevin: Good morning. Thanks. It was great to connect and look forward to our conversation.

[02:03] Michelle: Yes. I was actually so excited to talk to you today that I woke up at like 2:30 in the morning thinking about all the stuff that we're going to talk about. So, yeah, super excited. So you are, among other things, you have a varied background, and you have a lot of experience, but you're here today to talk about project management. You are a project management professional, and what does project management have to do with nurses? Right? I think a lot. And so we're going to talk about how project managers can help healthcare organizations. And I know you've been a part of doing that. But specifically, nurses to be successful when new processes, new software, new devices are being rolled out in our environment, in the hospital, or wherever we work, because it happens all the time. And also, nurses serve on a lot of committees. We serve on shared governance committees, unit-based councils and we are tasked with actually running a lot of projects ourself, but we don't have a lot of experience in doing that. So I'm just so excited for what you're going to bring today. So let's get into it. What is project management?

[03:32] Kevin: Well, the two thoughts, there's like an official one right from the Project Management Institute, and that the gist of it, not word for word, is essentially you're going to do something. It's a one time thing. It's unique, it's a process, it's a product, it's a device, like you mentioned largely in healthcare devices or maybe even workflows. It's for a finite amount of time. It's got a budget and that good stuff. To me, it's really bringing people together, building relationships, working a shared process, empowering the customer, and then also the other things we're putting a new device in, or we're looking at a process that's maybe taking more time from a quick hit. Example to not get too deep is I have to take seven vital signs and then go back and enter them right after I've written them down or some variation of that kind of thing. And we're just trying to help folks get more efficient, safe, be regulatory and compliant and all that super healthcare stuff. But really, the value that I think a project manager can provide is building relationships, helping other people build those relationships. So if people at different departments may never work together other than this project, that comes up and then also a shared process. So we're all on the same page. We know what's happening, when it's supposed to happen, and together, figuring out the how and a quick kind of upfront is often folks think, well, you're the project manager, you should make the plan. And that's, to me, a big mistake where we enable the plan to happen based on what our customers need, like nurses and physicians and other folks in the healthcare system. So really it's listening and helping pull everybody together.

[05:01] Michelle: Okay, that was a very succinct definition, and I appreciate that. And I liked what you said about, you know, bringing people together, bringing teams together, because that's absolutely what happens when these processes are rolled out. Nurses are working with IT, physicians are working with IT. You know, I will take the example of rolling out a new EMR, which is huge, right? And everybody needs to be on board with it. If they're not, it can be a complete shit show. Everything in your bio screams leader. First responder, US Navy veteran, emergency management, hospital IT, right, like leader, leader, leader. So is project management solely for leaders? Can nurses be project managers without a lot of leadership skills?

[06:08] Kevin: Yeah. So I would say that you don't have to be a formal leader, have manager, director, supervisor in your position to be a leader generally, let alone a project manager. And nurses from, you know, I'm a new nurse just come out of nursing school through, I'm the charge nurse and I've been here for 25 years. All can be leaders and all can do project management. And I say that because, you know, I've, you mentioned being succinct so I've distilled down a lot of things from, you know, and you've, you see it in healthcare, right. When I was a corpsman, when I'm an EMT, the manuals are enormous. Same with nursing, right? And I come from a huge family of nurses. I work with nurses a lot. And so a lot of shared, you study a ton of huge manuals. There's all these policies and then what you actually do is really not less work or input but the actual kind of SOP's that you follow are typically shorter than the giant manual had to study. And its the same thing for project management. So some folks think I have to know this whole thing and all the steps and how to calculate how long its going to take. And theres some of that when you get into how much is the project going to cost and lets estimate the ongoing and those kinds of things. But generally my distillation again a quick upfront is I have these foundational five things that if anybody can do this, and I've talked a lot interestingly lately, always to healthcare folks just because that's my job, but also to teachers looking to transition. And generally I say if you can either ask for or get leaders intent, so what, what does the organization want us to do? What does the C-suite want us to do? And then ask them to clearly tell us that then we're going to make some objectives. There's smart objectives, right, that are specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and time based, we're going to make an.org chart. I really like pictures, boxes and lines of who's doing what explains it saves hours in conversation, right? When we all agree on it and then some resources. Do I need a critical care nurse plus an ambulatory nurse plus something else to get all their perspectives on this new device or the EMR components and then communication, right, which is always both the strength and always a lessons and area for improvement in every after project, right? Which is just good to know upfront. But if we can know who we're going to communicate with, when, how, you know, why and kind of what the messaging are that to me is the foundation of any good project or bigger than that program. And so if you think about it, I mean, nurses do that every single day, right? If you think about just a quick example, if I'm going to go on shift, the, the overarching intent, probably from the charge nurse, even the head of the hospital, is, I'm going to provide high quality patient care, right? That's probably in everyone's mission statement across healthcare, like forever, everywhere at some point with other words. And then objective wise, you know, for this shift, I'm going to have four patients and I'm going to do vitals, you know, so you, you can have smart objectives. They're pretty straightforward. And plus some other things, maybe there's a patient trying to get off the vent. So you're focused on that. You know, the chart, you know, who's who on the unit, right? Who's the charge nurse, who's maybe your clinical coordinator, who's the staff nurses resources, that's kind of similar. So, you know, who has, what skillset do I need respiratory to come in? Are they rounding? It's the physicians. And then communication. You know, there's an on-shift brief. There's probably meetings during the day. There's, you know, rounds. And so all of that happens. It's just most folks don't think about it, that they're doing a bunch of projects all the time. It's just, oh, I'm just going to work. And that project management is, I couldn't do that. But, you know, not to talk myself out of a profession, but it really is when you break it down, that's what that is. The challenge is the people. It's not the process. And that's no surprise. I mean, in healthcare, you've seen that and other folks have. Right. The challenging part is, I think, dealing with other folks, not, did I get the vent settings right? Not that that's not hard, but no.

[09:48] Michelle: You're absolutely right there. And we talk about leaders. You are the, the host of Hope is NOT a Plan podcast, and we'll get into that a little bit. But I recently listened to one of your episodes where you talked about communication, and I was walking at the park and I was actually laughing out loud because it was just exactly as you described it in real life in terms of how things can get lost in translation with text messaging emails. Like, I've done it too many times in my career to count, where I sent a snarky response and hit reply all. And pretty soon my phone is ringing. And that was the other thing. What made me laugh was he said we can still call people on the phone. And I think that's such a lost art. It's like, it is, everybody is texting or emailing because we don't want to bother someone or be intrusive. But when you talk to somebody and even face to face is better. I know for me going into my manager's office and having a conversation instead of emailing or even on the phone, sometimes things can get lost. So I really love that, that you kind of got into the meat of communication because it is so important. And like you said, we're doing project management pretty much every day in what we do at work, but we don't really, we haven't had a name for it, I guess so.

[11:35] Kevin: Right.

[11:36] Michelle: Thank you for that.

[11:37] Kevin: Absolutely. One, thanks for listening. And, yeah, I think a lot of folks think of it as, you know, task management every shift and, you know, how am I going to do this volume of work and that perspective? I know it's helped me because similar, you know, from when I used to have gloves, gloves and scrubs on to now where I support those folks, which is helpful, too. I will say that it's also extremely helpful. And you've probably seen this. A path that a lot of nurses go into is nursing informatics. So it's, you know, you have a nurse head on and then you also have some IT stuff. For me, similar but, but kind of a different avenue where it helps to have that perspective to understand. You know, I, I, if im going on shift when I used to work in the ICU at Bethesda, I know I've got to take these vitals, fill out the sheet like this. Be able to present that at any time when someone comes by, one of the physicians or whats happening and give my elevator pitch on whats happening and then we can deep dive when we go in the room or whatever and something like that. But its very similar, almost the same skill sets. If youre project managing, I tell my team and get feedback from them, too. If leaders ask what's happening with the project, we should be able to give them that answer in a couple sentences, not a half an hour diatribe on everything that's happening. Because, one, they don't have time. They don't want to hear all that. And it really, I think shows that, you know, your patient, where, you know, your project, if you can summarize it pretty quickly.

[12:57] Michelle: Yeah. Time is of the essence, and I learned that so much in rounding on patients. And we only have so much time with each patient, and to be really detailed, but succinct is really, really important. I love how you discuss your seven pillars, and I would love for you to go over those briefly and just so nurses can kind of see how those could apply to them.

[13:30] Kevin: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I was fortunate. Fortunate to pull these together through an unfortunate series of events. And as you know, and probably, you know, pretty much all your listeners, you're going to see horrible things. You're going to be involved in horrible decisions. Sounds, smells like everything, right? And so that doesn't go away. We just put them further in the compartment in the back of our head if we're not proactively dealing with it. And so I did that from all those professions that you mentioned doing. You can imagine you see the greatest of people and the worst of people, some personal events, personal health things. And so a big catalyst. I had exercises, something I've done for a long time on my own or in the military or something like that. So I kind of had that. But you can't just do that and not take care of yourself the rest of the way, like sleep and things. And so the catalyst for me is, I had a big panic attack after I got some scary health news from my dad, and I had repetitive health impacts from my father-in-law. So all this stuff. And I'm not blaming them, it's just these were the things that kind of made the dynamite explode. That was sizzling, if you will. And so these seven pillars are actions that I took, resources I dove into, and the first one is ownership. So I had to recognize I wasn't healthy. I wasn't sleeping well, I wasn't making good decisions. I wasn't. I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do to take care of myself, to deal with the stress. And that happens a lot. It happens whether you're still doing shift work, whether you're on a regular schedule and you're a supervisor. And the answer is not which. I made it sometimes to come home and, you know, pop the cork or. Or open the bottle or do that. And at the time, it feels great. But if you do that over, over again, whether you're not even alcoholic levels, just repetitively, but you don't do anything else, it just doesn't help. And so I had to really go, okay, this happened, and. And I have to take ownership of it. And the ownership piece was also critical because, again, like, you know, and other folks listening that are in healthcare. Healthcare does a lot of great things, but it's not, it's not as great for a holistic view of your mental and physical, depending on who you go to, right. Particularly primary care physicians, they're not really trained for me to go see them and then they go, well, how's your sleep? And are you exercising? And do you practice my, you know, all these, all these kind of things, which is fine, but that's when we have to say, no one else is going to come help me do this. They're not going to tie my shoes, they're not going to get me off the couch when I'm in a depressive state. And you don't have to have forever label of, you know, depression, anxiety and things, but people go through that, right. And that's natural. I know when I was doing patient care, I did it, but at some point it builds up. So ownership. And then the second thing for me is mindfulness, and I was never into that, like, at all. Sitting for ten minutes, I had tried it and I was like, I can't just sit here. And then out of necessity and realizing, like, I've read a ton about this, read some books and started practicing it. And it makes a huge difference for me, ten minutes a day, right, sitting there, body scan, listen to your breath, hear what's around you, and not have to be perfect. Doing it is okay. And that then has ripple effects. So if your sleep is messed up and you are in a hard time, you can calm yourself down or realize, oh, I can follow the same practice and that helps. And then number three for me is movement. And so that there's a, there's a saying that it got. And it's great resource. There's a therapy, in a nutshell, YouTube channel. That's awesome. Emma McAdams, she's a therapist and she, I don't think she coined the term, but she shared, move a muscle. Change of thought. Right? And so when you feel anxious, when you're nervous, when you have issues like go for a walk, dance around, shake around it, it physically changes your mental health. And then, of course, I had the YouTube channel who was on a planet, I've shared exercise videos for a couple years now and more, so to say, hey, look, we can do this. And honestly, some of the videos I shared was a day or two after the panic attack and then on as I healed. And it's like, you got to keep moving. You got to keep going. And there's so many variations of exercise. Just realize it doesn't have to be perfect. It should just be something. And I do yoga. I lift heavy weights. I did jujitsu for a long time. I'll do, you know, Crossfit stuff. It's just something that you want to do and keep doing. But your physical health and exercise in general is as beneficial, if not more, than many medications that people will give you for depression, anxiety, things like that. And again, I'm not saying stop or do that, but just, it's real. That's not kind of jim, bro, science, as they say. It's actually real science. Yeah. And then the other thing is boundaries. So the fourth thing for me is what's not serving you well? Is it the people? Is it what you're doing? Is it where you're going and then either cut them out or do less of them or just, you have to have a real. Is it you, like, are you the problem? You know, what boundaries do you need to set between activities or things like that? And, and, you know, some folks aren't good influences in your life, and I'm a big believer in keeping your real circle small. Right. The folks that would be there in your worst times. And that's a big difference. And, I mean, I dare say that when you work on a unit and you work shifts, there's probably some gossip that happens and there's some. Some chit chat. Right? And so if you are constantly exposing yourself to that, like, stop. You know what I mean? And that makes a big difference because we can say we brush things off, but it all kind of adds up in there. So boundaries for me was, was big. And then connection, we, you know, you mentioned communication. I've been working remote since, like, you know, 2019, even before COVID and lockdowns and things. And I've realized I isolated not just from that, but from dealing with stuff. You know, I was the, you're the medical guy and be here for us, and I'm glad to do it. Right. That's what I do. But then I didn't, outside of that, deal with my own stress while, while I was focused on other folks and so reestablishing connections with old friends, with new friends, with your family, we're not meant to just be alone and sit in the house by ourselves and watch TV or not talk to anybody. And remote is good, but like you mentioned earlier, in-person is way better. You need to have human interaction. And that was a good thing for me to kind of reestablish and build on. And then the six for me is sleep. And this is a huge problem for tons of people, not just in healthcare, but shift workers and public safety folks and. And me, you know, thinking, if I. I can just look at my phone until I get tired, and then I'll go to sleep, which is awful for your sleep. And so I really dove into sleep hygiene, right. You know, turn the lights down a couple hours before bed, not watching a big action movie or scary movie or flipping, you know, phone and reading. And there's a whole. There's tons of stuff out there on the Internet. And I looked at cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia just to get some principles right. Because when you really can't sleep, and I got to a period where I would sleep an hour and a half and wake up just all night long, where you really have to make yourself stay up later and then get up at the same time. So the key is, if you're not sleeping, and again, I won't dive full into it, but the gist of it is, if I'm not staying asleep, I have to stay up till, like, 01:00 a.m. till I'm just exhausted, and then still get up at 06:00 a.m. and as you get better, then you can sleep more. But you kind of have to, and you don't have to do that forever. And again, I'm not a doctor, so I'm not prescribing any of that. But. But it worked, right? Because at some point, your body is like, oh, we should probably go to sleep. And the other thing is, you kind of restrict the activities in your bedroom, right? You don't sit there and watch tv. You're not doing everything. It's basically for sleep and procreation. That's what your bed is, right. And that, it's amazing. It resets your brain to be like, oh, this is where we sleep. It's not where we stay up on our phone and our iPad. And I have a TV in my room, too. And I know you're supposed to not have that, but when you get down the road, you can kind of ease back into it. But essentially, you have to kind of reset and really get strict with your sleep. And the seventh thing for me is faith. I grew up in a big Irish Catholic family, and so had it. And then I was the kid that didn't want to go to church, and then military went back and forth. And for me, just something bigger than yourself, whatever you believe in makes a big difference. And there's a lot of connection between kind of, you know, prayer and meditation or prayer and mindfulness. They're very similar, different focus, kind of, but it's time for yourself. And someone phrased it better than I could recently, the mindfulness, you're kind of putting it out there and you're relaxing and you're thinking about your body, and then maybe in prayer, you're kind of putting it out there to get a message. Which could be, there's also great studies. And again, if you don't believe in a certain data or something like nature exposure is also unbelievably medicinal. And then again, this is a guy that wore cargo pants, was in the Navy, did some cool stuff, right. And I was like, mindfulness and nature and all this, but it makes a huge difference. The combination of these I found of owning where you are and where you want to go, practicing mindfulness, getting regular movement, setting boundaries, making connections, getting sleep, and then having faith has just made a huge difference. And the key is they don't all have to be perfect because it's kind of. One is stronger, one may weaken, but they'll kind of help hold the others up, if you will.

[22:28] Michelle: Yeah, I, again, I listened to that episode, and so much of that resonated with me. And, you know, I love that you delineated that they don't have to be perfect, but they are pillars, and they all kind of work together and hold each one up. And to practice all of them is really essential, however you do it. And definitely for me, the boundaries resonated, especially with work. Outside of work, yes, but especially with work, because I was one of those people that I just always wanted to say yes to every project that was asked of me. And, you know, part of it was like, I was really intrigued, like, oh, that sounds really interesting. Yeah, I would like to be part of that. And part of it was like, FOMO right? Fear of missing out. Like, oh, if I'm not on that project, what's going to happen? So I had to really learn to say no or to step back and let others step forward and take that on. And sometimes my manager would say, I really want you to work on this or that. And I'd say, you know, I think this person is better suited for that. And I see these strengths in this person, and maybe you should ask them. And then if they say no, then I will reconsider. But those are so hard to do and especially a lot of nurses too, for working overtime. It's like institutions know that we are in the business of helping people. And man, you know, I've talked about my journey with breast cancer and how much overtime I was working the two, three years prior. It was absolutely ridiculous where I was basically just working. I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't eating right, I wasn't exercising, except running around at work. And that's not the right kind of exercise. Right? And then boom, breast cancer. So like wake up call. And then I really took a look at everything else in my life. Those pillars, like you said, you know, movement, you've got to move your body outside of running around on your twelve hour shift. Alcohol and exactly what you said. There's so much press and there's so many studies on alcohol and how it affects your sleep. Right? And I would be getting off a twelve hour shift and having a glass or two of wine and then wondering why I couldn't sleep. And so those kinds of things, I think the pillars are crucial for anyone, but I feel like especially people in healthcare. So thank you for, for talking about those.

[25:18] Kevin: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And you know, I think it's primarily for okay folks that are working, you can't be good for other people if you're not good. And that doesn't mean it's not okay to not be okay. But to your point, if you're just constantly burning the candle at both ends and you're not making it better and stuff, then you're just gonna get worse. And, and I love that you shared your leadership, your personal and other leadership too. And, and that point of, you know, the other example with boundaries, which you mentioned is for us as leaders to help set those for other people. So similar to shift work. Like I would make shifts for an EMS system and folks would want to just pick up more and more and more and make more money and do this. And at some point it's also good, not just for ourselves but to others to say that's not healthy. No, you cannot do that. Let's find some, you know, something else. And so that's a great point that you brought up. That reminded me too. But yeah, they're, I think they're, they're super helpful to balance and, and the good thing is they're, they're pretty much free. So there's no quote magic thing or hack or anything. Right. Like it's, you know, there's so many ways to do that.

[26:22] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. They're free, there's no hacks. And you just have to be mindful of them, first of all being there and then you have to practice them. Yeah. So I want to talk about a couple of times in my career that I've either led projects or I've been on a team. And so let's talk about the first one.

[26:45] Kevin: Sure.

[26:46] Michelle: Train the trainer projects. I was involved in a big, huge breastfeeding rollout, which was with multi different specialties. So nurses, lactation, physicians, obviously patients, a huge EMR project, also shared governance, unit based council. A lot of people that volunteer for those activities, they really don't have any training in how to lead a project or how to be a good team player. So what are some qualities that we can help foster in ourselves if we're tasked with becoming a project manager for something that we're working on, but we don't really have too much experience.

[27:39] Kevin: Yeah, great question. And so the first thing I would say is try and gather those kind of foundational five things. So what, what's the intent, right. From, from our leadership or the business case? Often it is like, here's why we're doing this thing. Make sure that the work has some legit, smart objectives. It off to be a ton, two or three is plenty. And figure out who's who. Get an org chart of who's on the project team and what resources do you have holistically? Not one thing that I'm big on, and I'll have this discussion whether it's just internal or vendor folks, is there's a team, not your team and my team and your project and my project. It's our collective project. And you would think you wouldn't have to say that out loud, but it is helpful to say that out loud. Right. And so sometimes you know that. So once you kind of see who's who, and then again, communication, you know, it seems early, but how often do we want to meet? The standard is kind of a once a week project meeting. Right. And then ad hoc deep dives as people need to, not with the whole team. And then like a monthly steering with leaders and, and then varying how you do that. And so some practical tips, I guess kind of walking those things is if you're a sign that leaders intent really needs to be. And I actually shared a quote from Eisenhower about D-Day this year, this week as the 80th anniversary of the invasion of Normandy. And so he had a great quote and it was the perfect leader's intent. That said, it's going to be hard. I believe in you. We're going to get it done. Boom. Like, you know, victory or it. So getting some clear from whomever is, is your leader. And typically on a project there's a sponsor, which is like, for us, it's a, it's kind of a standard industry standards, like a VP level. And that the good thing about that is if you need more money, if you need more time, all the big stuff that someone has to approve, write a, write a check for or work with a vendor, they can do that. Also, the big component about having high level leadership is the change management piece. Right. So the shiny new thing is awesome, but not everybody wants to use the shiny new thing. Right. Which you may have seen and which is, which is understandable if that shiny new thing doesn't actually fix their problem. Right. It's just a new thing and so creates more problems.

[29:46] Michelle: Right.

[29:47] Kevin: And that, you know, that there's, that's probably a whole series of episodes just on that getting to that point. But the good thing is the, they can help with, here's why we're doing this. Here's how we're going to support you. We'll get the training to use this and kind of set the stage. And throughout, if you have folks that just say, I'm not going to, and you, we as project managers, whether you're a nurse, you know, designated as that, can't tell everyone in the organization they have to do something, but the CEO can. Right. Or the VP of nursing or the nursing director or someone. And so that's not just a way of the stick. It's also a supportive thing, but it's very helpful to have that clear message. And then the objective is really, again, you know, what do we want to do by what time, essentially by what date and a few of those. And we also, you know, want to improve throughput by this percent. And so having some performance indicators, like we should be able to say, here's the problem we want to fix and here's where we want to get to and not have what you may have heard, like a nebulous kind of vision statement or mission that's grandiose. And they're on everybody's website across the world for an organization. But it should be, we want to decrease nursing documentation time by five minutes. Right. But that can't just be a total grab in the air, either. A helpful thing is go take, go get nurses to take like a total of 30 vital signs and see how long it takes and what's the average of that. I'm basing this off some real projects. And so, and then with the new system or new device or new whatever it is, do it again and see what got better. Right. Because it should get better. We should be testing that. And so that can help drive from the objectives to kind of your performance indicators on how we get better. And then the chart that all comes down to like we talked about before, communicating conversation. So if a nurse is selected as the project manager, it is helpful to partner with someone that maybe has done something similar before. So they can say, here's the people that we did this with last time, but not just find and replace the dates on the plan you used before is to then go, okay, let me reach out to those groups, those teams, those people, and see does it make sense if we do the same thing again? Always refresh the plan, refresh the idea, make sure it fits this time because it might not, something could have changed for some time. And so then those folks that lead those other resources will let you know, does it make sense that, you know, these folks are on the team plus these, oh, and consider this skill set and have those conversations. Just set up a call and talk through it. Here's what we're thinking. And that's where I think having an.org chart of, again, making clear to everybody that here's what I propose, draft like, because some folks when they see something, think, oh, that's it. And that's just what we're doing. You know, I just want to talk about it and have that on the screen and then you can get into the formal kind of, hey, I'm going to need the help from the clinical coordinator from this other area, like 2 hours a week and set that expectation upfront for however long we think the project's going to take. And that's a balance of, because I imagine there could be variance between it's someone like me that's from your organization as a PM and works with you, or the nurse, or it's directly with a vendor who's not from your organization, which I think is a little harder to do because you don't have the buffer. Like someone like me says, well, here's how we do things. Here's the interests of our organization. Right? Not that vendors are bad at all. It's just they have a product they want us to use and they often come with project managers and so they can, they could maybe drive a direction of the project where the nurse isn't comfortable with it. And if they're not used to pushing back on the vendor, then that's, that can be a challenge. And then the communication piece is, again, we're going to use teams or Zoom or whatever product you're going to use and have weekly calls, and then we're going to every couple weeks or every month and really set that tone. And if something comes up immediately, a text or like talked about crazy, give me a phone call. Right. If something happens and set those kind of escalation points. But largely, I've found if you do those five things in some of those activities, and of course, there's a ton more stuff and document, I mean, healthcare, if it didn't document right, it didn't happen. So whether it used to be on the trifold or the flip chart or now in an EHR EMR, it's also similar. So some key things to be able to document are the chart tasks, tracking which to keep it simple, you can use a spreadsheet with tasks. There's also all these other project management products, but if you don't have access to those, a spreadsheet, that's like, what's the task, who owns it, when's it due and what's the status is plenty to get started. It's amazing how well, like, I was fortunate to help support the opening of a children's hospital. And for high level stuff, we essentially use that. We used other systems, too, but, you know, a few months out, hey, we're getting ready. And it was just to track quick hit on things. Are we good here? Are we not good there? And have objective conversations like, don't hide if the project's not perfect, because, spoiler alert for everybody, no project is perfect. Yeah, I think that's okay. But that probably also depends on your environment, right? Because there's some environments where if it's not perfect, everybody freaks out. They're like, why? What are you doing? But that's another thing, I think as leaders that are listening is make it okay to not be perfect, but also be ready to jump in and say, hey, I've noticed this has been going on for a while. We need help there. But if you can track who's doing what, when's it due, is it on time or not? Do we need to help and not be afraid to escalate to ask for help? Some people think escalation is like a four letter word, but it's not like leaders want to help. Sometimes leaders are looking for stuff to do, and so you don't have to always give them something to do. But then the other key documentation is like decisions, I would document those somehow and it could be another spreadsheet or different tab or something like that. But a key decision log that says, here's why we decided to use this number of devices in these departments because inevitably down the road, whether it's an upgrade for the same system or something happens, like, well, who made that decision? We can go back and go, oh, it was you or ever it was that made it. But documentation, just like it's critical for medical care and then the legal side of that same thing for projects. And so I think that's a great power that nurses have is you're already doing all of this. It's just framing it differently. So instead of, you know, what are the, what are the hourly trends for the blood pressure, it's like what each week is going on with the tasks and who owns them and what's the status. And so then it's just like anything else. It's practice doing it over and over again. So I would implore folks to use those kind of things in document on little things and then they directly translate. You just have to scale them when you get to bigger projects as you move up and are asked to take on more things. Larger things.

[36:28] Michelle: Yeah. I think that support for nurses is so important because it's just going to make the project run easier. But also there are nurses, and I've been one of them, where I've worked on a project that, you know, didn't go well or I didn't have the support that I needed. And then it made me really leery of volunteering for other projects because I was like, is this, you know, is the same thing going to happen again? But it also made me realize that I didn't have the tools, I didn't have the resources and I needed. If I was going to take on this project, then I needed to advocate for myself and saying this is what I need for this that I didn't get last time, you know, and to be able to move forward.

[37:18] Kevin: Absolutely. And I think that's the big of one, hearing you look back and then at the end doing a lessons learned just like you do after largely like a code or something else, like, okay, what went right, what went wrong and as the nurse leading it, or if you're fortunate to have a project manager working with you all is be objective and transparent about it just like you have to with Medicare, you know, on, on the project. Okay, what do we do we like the three up, three down. What went well and what can we improve on? And then the next step is, how are we going to improve it? Because sometimes those just go away if, you know, you know, nothing ever, nothing ever changes. And we talked about it, like, cool, but what's your improvement plan and who owns it and when's it do? So it's kind of a carry on. But now we've operationalized it to know that, you know, we noticed when we use this wireless vital sign machine during the project, it was this delay. Okay, so we're going to follow up on that, make the Wi Fi in the hospital better in this area, you know, something like that. And so it should not totally stop when the project is over. And to your point, then next time, being able to say, okay, well, here's what we learn and here's what we need for the next time is invaluable to really everybody. It saves time and money, which, of course, everybody loves to do.

[38:28] Michelle: So, Kevin, I want to talk about buy in, and I hear this from so many nurse managers, nurse leaders when I've been tasked with a project, and here was a big one that I want to talk about. So in 2010, I became developmental care nurse for the NICU. And so during that time, there was a lot of up and coming research about using developmental care with infants, so sick, neonates, premature infants. And it was a huge project, one that I knew very, very little about. So first I took a whole year, and I educated myself, went to conferences, talked to developmental specialists, worked with physical therapy, occupational therapy, read hundreds of research articles. So I really was like, if I'm going to be this new role, I need to know what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and then I need to be able to communicate it to staff so that we can really change the way that we're caring for our neonates. So once I had buy in, right, I totally believed in everything that developmental care was. And I thought, I guess mistakenly, that everybody else would kind of see it my way. Like, there's so much evidence here, right? It's like we have, you know, we have a couple decades of evidence now about how this way of caring for infants is so much better and there's better outcomes and all of this. And so it was kind of like I wanted to say, okay, we need to do this because it's better for the infants. And so just kind of do it right. And my manager was like, that's not going to go over well, you know? And I honestly, I guess naively couldn't understand that. I was like, but the evidence is so strong, right? Like, why wouldn't we want to do it? Why wouldn't we want to do better if we know better? And, you know, she was like, this is going to take a while. You're changing decades of care that has been ingrained, and this was going to be unit wide, and it was going to have to be physicians and so many different disciplines. So talk about buy in and how do we get that? How do we facilitate that?

[41:15] Kevin: I'll tell a quick story before my healthcare day. So when I was in public safety, I was part of these incident management teams, right? So we'd plan big events or respond to after tornadoes. We'd go in there and help, or missing person, something like that. Basically, we project managed horrible things, right, or plan for them. And so one of the ones I was fortunate to be part of was to plan all the public safety, to be part of the planning team for the 2016 vice presidential debates that were here in Virginia at a college. And the buy in portion that applies here. As you can imagine, in public safety, there are agencies with different badges and patches that don't like working with other badges and patches or, like you mentioned, for decades or longer. They just clash. Police and fire, fire, EMS, sometimes, like, it doesn't matter. It's just whatever. There's, as you can imagine, egos and hormones, like, all the stuff, right? Clashing. And so people were. And in this case, and it's no law enforcement, and some of my best friends are in law enforcement, so no bust on them. This one law enforcement agency, a big one, didn't want to work this all hazards planning process, which is a combined process. We're all in one plan. We're all in one team. We all get food to get, like, everything. All the benefits you get out of working together. And so to chip away and get their buy in, it was probably 11:30 the night before. And as you can imagine, the day of the day was a super long day. Our team leader and then the leader of this organization and me and one of my colleagues were standing there, and he said, oh, do you need? He was going, I'm looking for a printer. And he had copies of their plan, which was not everybody else's plan. And my team leader said, oh, we can go make copies for you, right? And it was 11:30, and we were tired, and the last thing we wanted to do was make copies, right? Go make 50 copies of a plan that's not ours. And we knew they were working, but we did. And so we got their buy-in by rolling up our sleeves and doing something we didn't want to do. And then they realized, oh, we're like, yeah, and if you guys want to come up, we're doing breakfast at this time. And here, if you go there and we'll do the briefing, and then you start to chip away at that and you build a relationship. And so the relationship building was the key to getting buy in. Right. It was because we said, we'll do this thing you don't want to. And also, we have these other services you can get out of it, and we have these other things. And so I carried that with me to project and program management. And in healthcare, we do change management. And the model that we use and we're trained on is Prosci PRSCI's ADKAR model. And so that stands for awareness, desire, knowledge, ability and reinforcement.  And so that's a good acronym to think of when you want to have good buy in, which is a component or change. And that's essentially the challenge you had. I have tons of info and I know it's good, and I really want everyone else to change, not just because I want it, but it's better for the patients. But note, well, it seemed like folks didn't have your depth of knowledge. They didn't have the insight and they didn't understand it, and they've been doing something, and it's a huge change, just like your supervisor told you. And so walking through that ad car model helps. So the awareness piece, that's where, like we talked about earlier, leadership has to set the tone or you as part of the leadership to say, okay, here is why we feel we need to head in x direction, right. And using a lot of that information, but not kind of overloading folks with data. But here's the compelling better outcomes. And for you as the healthcare provider, all the needs, the ability. Right. And then the desire piece, which sounded like a challenge, is, and here's why it's beneficial for you person that we want to change and they're tangible and it's time saving and whatever it is, right. It doesn't have to just be time, but that's generally a really good one for folks that are busy on shift. And then the knowledge. So the knowledge we're going to give you, we're going to provide training. Here's some more background. We know we've been doing it like this and just being wide open with, here's where we've been, here's where we're going. We know that some of these are, you know, having that real talk that that nurses do right when you're on shift on the unit, same thing. And some of it's got to be, you know, global messaging. And then the ability is, again, we're actually going to give the training. We're going to allow you to kind of customize some things where's give and take, but you're, you're providing the knowledge and then giving them the ability to make this change so it's not so forward when it happens. Then the reinforcement piece is along the lines of the lessons learned we talked about earlier after project is we're not just going to do this and say, great, thanks for changing. Good luck. We're going to come back and say, how's it going? Oh, this is working well, this is not just like you gave that feedback to say, hey, next time we do this, we need to change x, y and z. Well, we need to keep doing that with this change management. It's just a good acronym to follow so that the buy in piece comes right at the beginning and should come right very soon after someone says, here's a better way to do things. Like you identified have that meeting with leaders that are going to approve the budget. They're going to be there to support it the whole time. And, you know, again, spoiler that doesn't always go super, right? Surprise. Not even just the implementation like you mentioned, your challenges, but, but the leadership, you, they may be all in and then at the end, the big changes coming, it's like, wait a minute, this impacts these people like this. Maybe I'm not on board. You're like, but you were when we, you know, got approved for whatever. So it's a constant working of that, you know, kind of system or process and the relationships, but the key is build those relationships up front so with leadership so they can support it effectively. And then the relationships with the folks that are going to do the change and a quick one and they probably do these where you've been and where a lot of your listeners are, is like the town hall meeting. Like, we're going to talk about it every month for the however many months this is going to take because to the point, change takes a long time and we're going to be open and we're going to take your questions and you've probably been on calls. People will throw out questions out there that you're like, oh, maybe we'll follow up on this or something, but it's very helpful to do that. And, you know, links where people can do surveys, all the different ways you can collect info, but that it's part of your change management strategy, and so you have not just leadership buy in to support it. The most important, the buy in from the people, you know, the sneakers and the scrubs on the ground that are doing the work is really important.

[47:32] Michelle: Yeah, I think that the buy-in went a lot easier for me than I anticipated. First of all, because of those relationships, because I had already been a nurse in the unit for 25 years, and so I was established. I wasn't somebody new coming in saying, you have to do it this way. And the other thing is, anybody that knows me knows I'm kind of a, I guess they would describe me as a touchy-feely person. And one of the most powerful reasons for this change that I discovered was I went to a conference on developmental care, and there was a parent panel, and the parents were parents of babies that were in the NICU, some of them, for five, six, seven months, their babies were extremely premature, and then they were taking them home with feeding tubes and on ventilators. And what they were saying about some of the things that the nurses said to them that were helpful, and some of the things that the staff said that were not helpful, that just devastated them or some of the care that they received that they just absolutely loved. And so when I brought this back to the unit and I shared this, I felt like that was a big change moment where we don't often hear from parents their feedback after their babies go home. And so I think that that really helped, too. And also having leaders that backed me up, that believed in this type of care and everything that I did, they backed me up. They backed me up. So I think it went a lot easier for me than it could have. But part of me, at the beginning, when they were saying, you know, you need to get buy-in, I was like, really? This is bullshit. Like, if this is the better way, we should just do it now, you know? But I was naive, and I had to learn that lesson.

[49:42] Kevin: Habits and ingrained processes are hard to break, and it sounds like, you know, those stories, which, similarly, I'd say, as a nurse, probably more connected to see the outcome of a project, whereas as a project manager, I never see the new device work other than testing or something, but I think that's great. Fuel content, etcetera. When the folks you have helped, you know, and their parents, just the stories of the good that you know, you can do if you do make this change is pretty awesome to hear.

[50:15] Michelle: Yeah. I think at the end of the day those that are providing the care, the physicians, the therapists, the nurses, you know, everybody that's providing the care when they're doing it for the. So the parents can take home their baby in the best possible way that they can do it. And when I tied that in, it really made a lot of sense. I found a really great article from Nursing Management Journal from 2019, and I'm going to include the link in the show notes. And it's An Introduction to Project Management, and it is for those nurses on the ground, those nurses that are volunteering on their unit based councils, on their shared governance committees that you've been tasked with this project, but you don't have a lot of knowledge or experience in doing it. And it has highlighted so many of the things that you've talked about today. So I'm going to include that in the show notes.

[51:23] Kevin: Nice.

[51:23] Michelle: But yeah, as we get ready to close, Kevin, give us some actionable advice because that's part of your podcast, Hope is Not a Plan. You can't just hope for things to go well. You have to have a plan. And you've shown that in your whole career and in your life, too, in your personal life. I love your instagram. I love watching you do your cold plunges and your sauna. And my sister's doing that right now, and she's kind of my heroine.  She's a flight nurse and a pilot. And so she's doing all these cold plunges and the saunas and she's the one that got me into Crossfit. So I love how you are actually applying this to your life. So give us some actionable advice on how to become our own best project managers.

[52:25] Kevin: Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. I appreciate it. Yeah. The cold plunge is definitely a mental as much as physical exercise. I would say it's how I broke down or gotten to the rhythm of breaking down my episodes at Hope is Not a Plan podcast is when you see a problem. Keep your hope. Hope is huge, hope ignites. Action transforms. Right. If you don't have hope, then you're not going to have the motivation to take that ownership, that step one, that pillar. So keep that hope and then put a plan together to act on it immediately and then see what actions you are. And so on my episodes, I talk about those four things and then kind of expand on them. But I think it really is, it sounds that simple. But, it is, because I see and have been reached out to by folks, whether it's on Reddit or via Instagram somewhere else, and it's like, oh, I can just do these things and make a difference. And now that doesn't mean it's going to be easy when you put the plan together and you take action, but there really is no one else is going to come do it for you. So whether you've been tasked with a project and you're unfortunately maybe not given as much support as it sounds like you were given, it's like, okay, you have to get this thing done, lean into it, say, okay, what is the problem? What's the hope that we have to do? What is the plan we're going to pull together? And for the plan, think about those foundational five things I talked about and then start the work. The best thing you can do is just start working, whether it's to start working out, to start working on the project, to start changing whatever it is in your life. And again, there's going to be challenges, and that's a, you know, but there's challenges in every life in and outside of work anyway. So that's really, I think that the quick hit that I would say in addition to the other things that we talked about, and then look into those, those seven pillars, they really are life changing things. And there's tons of resources. I've shared those on my, on my website, so you don't have to go find everything. And that's hopesnotaplan.org. And so from there, you can see videos, get resources and the resources, again, either products I use, supplements and things, or who are the people that I learned from. And I think the great thing about what you do and what I try and do is that when you do learn something, share it, share it with other people, because it won't be a podcast, it doesn't be instagram it, it could just be something at work, in the hall, during change of shift, at lunch, whatever, because everybody has difficulties out there. And when you go through hard times, if you haven't already find that out, right, you'll, people open up, they're like, oh, I also had that thing that you're talking about. That's a challenge. And I think that's really helpful. So I think look at, look at your pillars. Look, think of those foundational five things to bring a plan together and then just get started. Right? Don't, don't wait. And keep that hope, though. It is important. The name is pretty straightforward and we use it in public safety because, again, a lot of folks, we hope, we work together when we show up there and you're like, that's not the plan. But you do have to have both, but you have to take action. And for me, the practical message alone that the kind of biblical teaching from Joyce Meyer, she's super straightforward person. Right. And one of the greatest things I heard her say was, well, God may have this plan for you, but he's not going to come tie your shoes for you. Right. And so that mindset resonates between, I think, her and then I would highly encourage folks, whether you're having a tough time or not, or the sunny day every day is read Viktor Frankl's, Man's Search for Meaning, life changing book. I think I'm going to start my fourth reading of it. Every time I think about it, I'm like, I should be awful in some parts. But the amazing thing about truly, like, hope is not a plan is that guy, right? Like, he had to have hope being in concentration camps, but he also took action, made plans, did things, and then influenced the world. And, you know, like me, change folks for the better. And it was, it was extremely helpful. So, and thank you for all the work you did nursing and you're doing now. It's amazing to share on this platform of podcasts, right, this resource that people have for free. So thank you for this opportunity to share my, my two cent on things.

[56:25] Michelle: Well, I love your two cents, and I love your message to nurses that if they're tasked with a project to first advocate for themselves, what they need, what resources. Backing from leadership and mentorship is so important. You and I have both had great mentors throughout our careers, and we need those. And I like your message of sharing it. I've worked with IT at my institution on many, many projects, rolling out lots of new EMR's and changes in the EMR. And I became sort of the IT person on my unit that the nurses would call when they had a question before they called IT. And I loved sharing all that. I learned all about fat clients and thin clients. Oh, my gosh. And the nurses would just be, you know, in awe sometimes. Like I'd say, oh, well, that doesn't work because you're on a thin client, and you need to be on a fat client. And here's one over here. It just was so much fun. But, yeah, I love your message of sharing, that's great.

[57:39] Kevin: Folks like, you're like force multipliers for that change, for that successful project. They can't happen without having strong advocates out there in the world.

[57:48] Michelle: Absolutely. Well, is there someone you recommend as a guest on this podcast, Kevin?

[57:55] Kevin: Oh, gosh, there's so many, I think, of. As far as nursing, I've got, like I said, a family chock full of nurses, one in particular I think of that's been working in cancer research for a long time that I think could provide some great insight. The first person I thought of, too, is someone that's influenced me, and that's Jocko Willink, who wrote the book extreme ownership. He's retired Navy SEAL. And a lot of the inspiration for kind of the fitness sharing I do now, but really talks about the, the owning where you are in the leadership aspect and applies for everywhere. It's, you know, it's, it's, quote, catchy because he was an AVC. But it's really. And he'll, you know, he says this himself, that the practical message of leadership at every level, like everyone's a leader, truly resonates. And something that I've carried with my teams, like, I let my leaders lead until I see that they're having trouble. And I think that's, you had mentioned earlier about advocacy and mentorship, and I think that's a good thing mentors can do is don't just jump right in right away. Let your folks work through something and let them be leaders and make decisions so we don't kind of stifle their growth. But, yeah, I'd be happy to connect you with my cousin who's done great things in research and helped me and my family out a lot.

[59:10] Michelle: I would love it. Thank you. I'd love to connect. Well, where can we find you?

[59:15] Kevin: Sure. So the main website is hopeisnotaplan.org. So, but there you can find episodes, the resources I mentioned. So I actually have templates. So I mentioned using a spreadsheet. I actually have a couple spreadsheet templates you could use to download projects, a one pager kind of summary to capture those foundational five things. So that's the main hub. And then Hope is Not a Plan Podcast is kind of like your show. It's on all the other platforms. So whether you Apple, Spotify, Android, or, you know, user, it's there. And then on Instagram and Twitter, I'm hopesnotaplan. And so, yeah, you'll see me there. And then there's a Facebook page and then those kind of sharing fitness 15 seconds at a time is the Hope is Not a Plan YouTube channel. So today's video is yoga, and I highly recommend mixing in yoga. It feels. It's great, especially if you're sore. You've done, like, you crossfit workout and you're like, oh, today I'm a little tight. And again, that's also a form of mindfulness. Right. That kind of pillar, too. So it's great to be there just with you. And there's a jujitsu leader in the industry that made a great quote that said, yoga is the martial art you do against yourself.

[01:00:23] Michelle: That's great.

[01:00:25] Kevin: If you've ever done yoga, you understand completely what that means.

[01:00:28] Michelle: Like, yes, totally. Yeah. Wow, that's great. And I've checked out all your sites except Twitter. I'm not on Twitter, but everything is great. I love your website. I've already downloaded some of your spreadsheets because I'm. I'm a spreadsheet kind of gal. I like. I like organization like that. So those are great resources. Thank you for sharing all those so we can find you.

[01:00:52] Kevin: Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah.

[01:00:53] Michelle: And thank you for being my guest. Kevin, I. You know, you're kind of out of my wheelhouse a little bit, not being a nurse, but I just had to talk to you because I think so much of what you're about is so much of what we're about as nurses. And your information today, your knowledge, your expertise, your wisdom has just been so beneficial today for our audience, and I thank you for sharing it.

[01:01:28] Kevin: Absolutely. Thank you. I'll give credit. You mentioned good leaders. My big Irish Catholic family is very matriarchal. It's led by three or four sisters, and probably 30 of them are nurses. So right there with you. And when I was in the navy as a corpsman and critical care, my mentors were the, you know, the Navy and civilian nurses that helped me get where I am today. So love, love nursing and all you're about.

[01:01:51] Michelle: Oh, thank you. Okay, well, we are ready for the five-minute snippet. So are you ready to have five minutes of fun?

[01:01:58] Kevin: Yes.

[01:02:00] Michelle: All right, we're just gonna start. Tell me about a great friendship you've had and what made it great.

[01:02:48] Kevin: Well, a great friendship I've had and still have is actually someone with a very similar. I was a corpsman with him. He's now a career firefighter, has been for probably seven years. And it's his friendships where we're guys, we don't communicate well, but when we talk to each other, get together, it's just like we saw each other yesterday and, you know, we mentioned the catalyst for me of the seven pillars, and he had, you know, a similar track. And when you have a great friend and you can totally open up about the good and the ugly of your life, it's amazing. So shout out to Rob in Arizona.

[01:03:21] Michelle: Fantastic. Okay, finish this sentence. I work out because______

[01:03:28] Kevin: It's amazing for my mental health.

[01:03:31] Michelle: Yes. Amen. Okay. And I see running a lot on your Instagram. I see you doing a lot of activity on your Instagram. But one of the things you're doing is running through the area where you live. Have you ever encountered a wild animal while you were running?

[01:03:48] Kevin: Not while I was running, other than, like, squirrels and deer. There's deer everywhere and turkeys and things. We saw a bear once. We were sitting on our porch. But the most memorable when I was running or walking was kind of in that difficult few months after my panic attack. And I kept seeing this one super bright orange lizard. And it was in, like, the. And it's one of those sign things for me. Right. I've never seen it again. I saw it probably six or eight times. And it was those times where I'm like, okay, just keep going. You're, you know, just working through all this stuff in my head, and so that. That probably stands out the most to me. And I've never. And it was a little tiny thing that really, you wouldn't see. And I happened to look down right where it was every time. It was pretty. Pretty impactful.

[01:04:31] Michelle: Yeah. Sometimes we're sent those signs, and you just have to see it as that. Cool. What's on your bucket list?

[01:04:40] Kevin: Oh, I'm not a huge traveler. Like, I don't like fly flying. Unfortunately, my family and I will take trips. The first thing that popped into my head, which is funny, because I asked my kids, I'm like, just tell me what popped in your head, is that they graduate and have lives and they're healthy. That, to me, is the bucket list of things to do. I live in the mountains, so I'm kind of old that way. And so I would say probably going to Ireland. My family went there when I was in school, so I couldn't go. And, you know, my kind of ancestors are from there, so that. That's probably one if I had to put, like, a to do for me thing on there.

[01:05:17] Michelle: Love that. What is quickly becoming obsolete?

[01:05:21] Kevin: Um. What is quickly becoming obsolete? Gosh, that's a good question. Not prepped for. I would say, unfortunately, something we mentioned earlier, and that's directly talking to people, you know, the ability to start and maintain a conversation and probably actually, sorry, more so is good handshakes. I'm a huge fan of a good handshake. And then, you know, that way and probably less and less now, but I think just that interpersonal, you know, life.

[01:05:53] Michelle: Yeah, I agree there. What song hits you with a wave of nostalgia?

[01:05:59] Kevin: It's my, and my whole family knows it. It's Melt with You by Modern English. It stuck into my head the first time I saw it, and I turned 50 this year. So the movie Valley Girl from the eighties, right at the very end, and that was, I think Nick Cage is, like, first movie. At the very end, that song kicked up. And since then, it's just been, I love that song. It's always crank it up and just feel like, you know, think back to the, what were the songs that were on then? The movies I watched.

[01:06:27] Michelle: Yeah. Wow, that nostalgic feeling. It's so wonderful to reminisce, right?

[01:06:34] Kevin: Yes.

[01:06:34] Michelle: Okay. Your favorite cheat meal.

[01:06:37] Kevin: I would say it is pasta with white sauce and kind of crumbled sausage.

[01:06:45] Michelle: Oh, my gosh. Who makes that?

[01:06:47] Kevin: We've made it a couple of times, but the restaurant where I asked my wife to marry me made it,  Il Pizzico in Maryland. If anybody's there, it's amazing.

[01:06:57] Michelle: That sounds amazing. All right, last question. Since you're such a workout fan, would you rather do 300 burpees or run a half marathon?

[01:07:10] Kevin: Oh, gosh, where I am now, that's a tough one. I mean, immediately I thought burpees, and then he said half marathon. I was like, you know, 6 miles or something. I would probably, you said, which would I rather do or not do?

[01:07:23] Michelle: Which would you rather do?

[01:07:24] Kevin: Probably the burpees.

[01:07:26] Michelle: Well, how many burpees do you do on with the Murph?

[01:07:30] Kevin: You actually don't do any. It's. It's run a mile, 100 pull-ups, 200 push ups, 300 air squats, and then run another mile. But there's this challenge I'll do every now and then, what some do now that you've reminded me. So thank you for that, try and do 100 burpees in ten minutes. 

[01:07:44] Michelle: Wow.

[01:07:45] Kevin: If you think it's like, you know, ten a minute, so you can. It's doable. It's tough. So thinking about. Okay, times that by three is. It sounds awful, but where I am now, I could do that probably more than I could run 13 miles.

[01:07:59] Michelle: Well, that's amazing. Anybody that can do a strict burpee, you know, Crossfit for two years, I was never able to do a strict burpee, but I just always had mad respect for those that could do them, and you're one of them, so that's hard.

[01:08:17] Kevin: I mean, it's amazing to me how getting down and getting back up is awfully hard.

[01:08:23] Michelle: Right?

[01:08:24] Kevin: Funny. Yeah.

[01:08:25] Michelle: Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you, Kevin, I've had so much fun with you today, and like I said, I woke up at 2:30 this morning, just so excited to talk to you, and you did not disappoint. So thank you so much.

[01:08:40] Kevin: Gosh, thank you. So I really appreciate that opportunity. All the guests that you've had on the different aspects of nursing and other leadership in healthcare, just, I think it's amazing and making a positive impact, and I always, obviously not shy so I always love the chance to share what I've learned and that I hope, helps other people. So thank you.

[01:08:57] Michelle: And I thank you. Have a great rest of your day.

[01:09:00] Kevin: Yep, you too.