Angela Gonzales, BSN and Founder, A Legacy of Love

[00:00] Michelle: On a recent Sunday morning in October, I sat down with my longtime friend and colleague Angela Gonzalez. October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, and we brought awareness to this all too common and often minimized topic by remembering Angela's son, Daniel. Daniel was born to Angela and her husband David on June 9, 2010, at 32 weeks gestation and lived for just 3 hours, dying from polycystic kidney disease. This tragic event started Angela on a path that she never asked for but has ultimately proven to be the best healing medicine she never knew she needed. It was Fred Rogers who said, "When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping'".  And that perfectly personifies Angela. She had a long history of helping families as a postpartum nurse, but she took it one step further and founded her nonprofit, A Legacy of Love, and began helping women weather the storm of infant loss. And we didn't just talk about Daniel that Sunday morning in my closet. We celebrated him. Yes, you heard me right. I said celebrate. Though Daniel lived just a few short hours, his legacy of Love lives on in his family and in the work Angela does to ease the suffering of others who have experienced this deep loss. In the five-minute snippet, Angela is going to need more land.  Well, good Sunday morning, Angela. Welcome to my closet.
[02:10] Angela: Thank you for having me. Good Sunday morning to you.
[02:13] Michelle: It's been a pleasure. I've been trying to get you for a while.
[02:19] Angela: Yes.
[02:19] Michelle: A long while.
[02:20] Angela: Yes.
[02:21] Michelle: And I'm just glad that you had the time that you needed to say, I think I want to do this. I've known you for many, many years. So we're colleagues, we're friends. We kind of grew up at the hospital that we worked at. We've been through a lot together.
[02:44] Angela: Absolutely.
[02:45] Michelle: I knew that you have a story that I want you to share with our listeners because it's valuable, and you've done some amazing things with some of the hardships that you have suffered. And so I want to talk about that. As you are aware, October, and this is October 22, October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month. So we're bringing attention to your loss of your son Daniel. And so we're here to talk about Daniel today. We're here to talk about the nonprofit that you started, A Legacy of Love, and just lots of stuff in general. So, again, thank you for being here.
[03:43] Angela: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. And it's a privilege, actually, because in the 13 years that Daniel has been gone, we don't get invited to anything. So it's just not a topic that people want to go to. And fortunately, I think everybody knows somebody who has lost a miscarriage in early pregnancy up until an adult child. And so not talking about that really stifles the grieving process. And so to be asked to speak about my son who's just one of hundreds that are lost daily probably, it really does fuel my passion to keep going. Like you said, this is a hardship that we suffered in our life and we were obviously not prepared for it. And so it has really affected all aspects of my life, my family, my friends. And so I do appreciate you inviting me and acknowledging the month. We get one month, and we have to share it with cancer, which is pretty huge, but so is losing your baby. And I tend to speak the truth because I'm able to now. And so I will say things like a dead baby is as valid as someone's breast cancer because that person with breast cancer will eventually die but they're still here and they're able to be loved on and cared for and held and our dead babies are not. And so it is as valuable. Unfortunately, cancer is a big deal and I agree it sucks. Cancer sucks, as you know, but it is valid and so our baby losses get overshadowed by that. And so the more we talk about it, the more people like you are willing to bring us in and open us up, and ask the hard questions. I think they know and I don't know that we'll ever be overshadowing cancer, but baby loss has been happening probably as long as cancer. So my little part of The Legacy of Love, changing Daniel's death into something positive, that's what I do. This is how I parent him. So thank you for being open to that. I appreciate it.
[06:09] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. So we're going to start off because you are a nurse and you're a fabulous nurse. And so let's just hear your story about kind of how you came to be a nurse, where you've worked, and where you are now.
[06:27] Angela: Okay. So I tend to not like change very much. So when I became a nurse in 2000, I went to Fresno City and I got in right away. I did an 18-month program. It was their pilot program and it was called Paradigm and I was fortunate to get through it in 18 months. Became an RN, and never had to do CNA LVN, which I think God knew what he was doing because not do those jobs. And so I came to an interview, the Kaweah Delta was having a job fair and so Linda Stewart, it's an old name that maybe only you and I know and I can't remember, Susan Kordell were the bosses back then and they hired me on the spot. I was about one month shy of finishing the program and they wanted nurses so I applied, and I thought, oh, my God, this is too good to be true. And so in 2000, I graduated in May, and I started the hospital in September as an RN IP. Shadowed Michelle here for a little bit in the NICU and Pediatrics. And a lot of old nurses that are not there, not old, but seasoned nurses that are now all retired.
[07:47] Michelle: That's right.
[07:48] Angela: And so taught me what I know and that I loved what I was doing. But I found my niche in Mother-Baby, and so I stayed there for 19 full years. I was a mother-baby nurse, floated down to the other units here and there. But mother-baby was my passion. I just knew I wanted to work with the babies. I didn't want to be stuck in a little room. Unfortunately, like the NICU was back then. Oh, it was it was very small. And then I didn't want to do sick kids because my heart just couldn't take it because they could cry and I couldn't do anything. I just could not handle it so broken. Just anyone who knows me knows I know my limits, and that was a limit for me. I cannot do broken bones. So I stayed in mother-baby, and I really honed my skills there. I could do it with the back of my hand. Learned from the old OG nurses. Patty Beck, Becky Zsito, and who I'm still friends with. Becky Zsito on Facebook.
[08:49] Michelle: Thank God.
[08:50] Angela: But, yeah, she taught me. She and Patty Beck taught me everything that I know. And then, like, NICU, you and Monty, and, I mean, just the old nurses, old seasoned nurses. I miss those days because I feel like nursing was so simple back then. So stayed there for 20 years, 19 years, and then decided I needed a change. The hospital just wasn't for me anymore. I had lost my passion. I had lost my way there. But between 2000 to 2010, I had three kids. Liliana was born in 2006. I was a very sick cookie. You came to visit me many times on 2East while I was trying to have her at, like, 30 weeks. And then my son Drew was born in 2008, and I was still sick, but he was born healthy. And then our third son was born in 2010. And I was diagnosed with all the sickness and stuff. But unlike the other kids, I was off of work, like, in the teens, like 19 weeks. Twelve weeks. I mean, it was ridiculous. And then for Daniel, I was able to work up until I got his diagnosis at 27 weeks. It was incredible. But I threw up. He was nothing like my other babies. And we never found out what our kids were beforehand. But I had a feeling he was a boy because he was so much trouble. And so I went to my ultrasound. I was a little bit past my ultrasound at 20 weeks. They usually like to do it, but they did it at 27 weeks for some reason. Dr. Boken's office. I can't remember her name, but she was there forever. She had an accent, the girl that did ultrasounds, and she told me, she goes, I'm going to go get Dr. Boken. And anyone who's ever lost a child or had anything go wrong in their pregnancy knows. When you hear, like, your heart stops and the room gets really quiet and you start feeling hot, like, oh, God, like your fight or flight syndrome kicks in. And so she went and got Dr. Boken, and there was not a lot of fluid. There was something wrong with his kidneys. So Dr. Boken said, I'm going to send you up right now. I'm calling the doctor in Fresno, and she's going to do a special ultrasound, more in-depth. And I said, okay. So this particular one time, I went to the OB doctor appointment without my husband David, and that was the one that I said, Dave, you need to come with me to the Doctor. We're going to Fresno. So got the kids situated, went to Fresno, and the doctor came in. And I remember everything about that day, which I won't go into detail because it really doesn't matter. But I just want to point out that in my story you'll hear and other stories you'll hear, there are certain times that you could remember, like, if you're still there and you can see it, the vision, you can feel the room. And I don't know their names. I can't remember the doctor's or the nurse's names anymore, but I can remember the doctor wearing her puffer jacket. It was in May. And I remember thinking, why the hell are you wearing a puffer jacket? What's going on here? She was weird, just a little weird. And so she comes in and she puts the monitor on and she's looking at everything, and she's like, well, yeah, so what do you want me to do? And my husband and I just looked at each other like, whoa. And I said, well, I want you to tell me my child's okay. And she said, Well, I can't do that. And it just blew our minds. And she said, your son has a non-compatible with life condition called polycystic kidney disease. All his kidneys are engulfed in cysts, and he has no lung tissue because the kidneys were not able to produce urine. So he wasn't able to produce lung tissue. So he's not going to live. He's going to pass at birth. And my husband said the F word, which I never heard him say before that, and she kind of just left us there and just wallowed. We just lay there in disbelief and shock.
[13:06] Michelle: She's a Perinatologist? Wow.
[13:07] Angela: Yes, in Fresno. They have Dr. Adeniji now, which is so unfair because he's just like Jesus on Earth. But yeah, she was very unsympathetic so much so that her assistant, who is not a nurse, who's just the girl putting me on the monitors, held my hand, and she said, I'm so sorry. She was the one that gave us compassion. Thinking about it now, which always happens, I think about that moment because it's so clear. I don't think that doctor knew. I think that the doctor thinking about her, like, giving her the benefit of the doubt. She probably couldn't be compassionate because of the amount of people that go in there with babies that are going to die, you know what I mean? Like surgeons.
[13:55] Michelle: You're giving her so much grace.
[13:57] Angela: I am, I am. Because I have to. Yeah, it gives me a lump in my throat. But anyway, we went home, and Dr. Boken said, just rest. I had no fluid. He had no fluid, right? She said, just rest and drink fluids. And I was like, if I drink a lot of water, he'll get fluid, sure. So stupid now. But no, just sat there and bring me all the water. And then Dr. Boken could call me for a visit. And she said, Angela, we need to have this baby. And I was like, no, he's only 32 weeks. Yeah, I waited three weeks because I was like, no, I feel him kicking and moving. It's not going to happen. So I waited 32 weeks. And she's like, well, if you don't have him, he can die inside of you, and you don't want that. And I was like that was like, okay, all right, fine. So then I just went into like, let's do this. How do we do this? And so I said, well, there's a few things I have to do. So I went and talked to our priest. We're Catholic. So I talked to the priest, and I told him the situation. I didn't want to be in trouble with God for having an abortion, which I know was not the case, but he was God would forgive me, and it's not anything that I need to worry about with God. This is an appropriate situation. And so I said, okay. So then I went and talked to Dr. Latta. I don't think he's there anymore. And I said, I just want to know he's not going to be in pain, he's not going to suffer, and I want to know that is there any chance at like, is there anything I don't care what it is. Just tell me, and I'll decide if I want to do it or not. And he said I've seen two others in his career. He had seen two others, and they did not live. And I said, okay. So then the next thing is, I need to make a death plan. I need to know what's going to happen. That's just the kind of person I am. And so he said, well, he'll be born, and he may or may not try and cry because he'll have no lung tissue, so we may not hear anything. And I said okay. And so I knew he's like, but we'll give him some morphine, we'll give him whatever he needs. And he asked me, are you okay with that? And I said yes. I just don't want to hear him cry. And I know babies are supposed to cry at birth, but I knew he couldn't. So I was like, I don't want him to even try. Like I want him to know, I don't want him to try to do something he can't do. And then I'll have that in my head for the rest of my life. So it happened, I didn't hear him cry. Felicia, beloved Felicia, who lives up to her name, was his nurse and Susan Kellogg was his nurse. And they took such good care of him. And my best friend Yvonne Diaz and I needed her with me because I told her I needed someone who was going to tell me the truth. I don't want somebody who's just going to tell me what I need to hear, what I want to hear. So she came in to be the support person, I guess, with my husband. And she said, you have to hold him because I didn't want to see him, I didn't want to hold him. And she said you have to hold him. And I said, I can't. I don't think I can let go of you. And she's like, he's alive. He's alive. And so to this day, I owe her that. She brought him to me and I held him and he passed 3 hours later. So that's how Daniel was born in 2010. And I went to my room on mother-baby,  standard room 62, which is not room 62 anymore, I don't think. And a big quarter room. And Jon Knudson was our director at the time, our boss at the time. And he saved the room next door for our family because my husband has a huge family. So they were all waiting for us. And I don't remember much after that. It all becomes I don't remember getting from surgery to our room. Obviously, I did, but we stayed there for four days. I didn't want to go home. Does that sound weird?
[18:07] Michelle: No, I saw that in your bio. I could feel that it resonated with me. This is so natural.
[18:24] Angela: I didn't want to go home, not want to go,  it's interesting because I didn't know at the time. I didn't know anything. I didn't know. And really before Daniel, I don't think our floor really knew much either about what's really important with these families. Right? So Devin Rhyman was our nurse for half of the shift. She got sick and then Marissa Stevens came. Yeah, these girls are amazing. And so anyway, so when Devin was our nurse, apparently my husband had known he had passed. I remember the row of family standing in that room was huge. I remember all the family, cousins, even a friend. There was a photographer there that I had never known. Jeanette Smith. Now she's one of my good friends.
[19:12] Michelle: Photographer from Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep?
[19:13] Angela: She was not, she was a personal just somebody, a friend of ours had lost a child already. And she said, you need pictures. And I was like, I don't even care. So she had done that for us. And so the photographer was there and took pictures. Hundreds of beautiful pictures that I've still never looked at 13 years later. But I remember him being passed down as all the people. I remember watching my husband cry in my brother-in-law's arms. And then I remember seeing Daniel on the table because the photographer was taking pictures of him as she was supposed to. And I remember the only thing I can really truly say, I know with all my heart is true, is that I thought to myself, he's going to get cold. She needs to cover him. That was it. So Devin had come in to check on me, and my husband apparently asked her. But I didn't know how long can Daniel stay with us. And meaning before he has to go, he's going to change. Even my husband couldn't even say it. The body's going to change. And so Devin was kind and so good to him. And she, you know, usually a couple of hours, maybe 4 hours before the baby will start to change colors. And he's like, well then that's when I want you to come get him. Because I didn't have any thought processes. I didn't ask to keep him longer. And so he was gone that night about 3 hours or 4 hours after he passed at seven. So probably at 11:00, they came in and with all the meds, I'm sure I was asleep. But I don't remember him leaving. And so when I woke up, he was gone. My husband told me what happened. I was like, okay, all right, whatever. I just wanted to die. I didn't even care anymore. Nothing mattered looking back. And then I find out later that the girls kept him at the nurse station and loved on him and stuff. And that kind of infuriated me because it was like, why didn't you give that to me? Why didn't somebody tell my husband? We don't have to take him. You can hold him if you want. But again, this was before Daniel. And so, yeah, that's just something that I struggle with. But it's not anybody's fault. It was just ignorance. We didn't know. Even I didn't know.
[21:34] Michelle: So 13 years ago we've come a long way in 13 years, thankfully, that we have much more education and sensitivity and we have many more tools in our toolbox to help families like yours.
[22:00] Angela: It was really a thing to be there. I don't want to go home without him. I don't want to go home at all. That means life. And so we had my two kids come up. They were two and four at the time. And I vaguely remember them looking out the window, thinking, oh, my God, they're going to fall out the window. That's just my sick, twisted personality. But if it was sick and twisted, then, it's definitely worse now with them, because I know bad things can happen to good people, and weird things happen, and strange things all the time. So if I can lose a child, definitely my kids are not safe in my world. My kids are not safe ever. Anyways came back to work, so he passed away on June 9, 2010. I came back to work on October 10th, 2010. So 10-10-10. And I remember giving report to Michelle McPheeters, or she was giving me report, and the first one she had to give report to was a baby boy. And I just bawled, and I was like, this sucks. And I think I just realized, I got to do something about this. I have to change something. This is not okay. This is not okay. And so I was like a dog with a bone. It's like, I carry this bone with me, and don't you ever take it, you know?
[23:17] Michelle: So let's go back to that. Because Daniel passed away in June. You went back to work in October, you started crying, talking about another baby boy being born, and yet you're so hard on yourself about like, this can't happen. This isn't right, saying those things to yourself, and you had really barely started the grieving process.
[23:53] Angela: Yeah.
[23:53] Michelle: And we are just so brutal with ourselves, right? We say those things to ourselves, like, you need to snap out of it.
[24:03] Angela: This is your job. You need to snap out of it.
[24:06] Michelle: You need to get back into life. Wow, that is huge.
[24:12] Angela: You know what? You're right. And I had other people tell me that. But I think for me personally, if I had stayed and grieved the way I've seen others grieve, taking their time and stuff, for me personally, well, we wouldn't be talking right now, and I wouldn't have been able to move forward. I needed to be kicked in the butt, and I needed to be kicked hard. Go back to work on the mother-baby unit. Touch, see, hear, feel other babies. They're not yours. And I knew that. I think I was very blessed with a sound mind and a phenomenal support system at home, but also at work, that they just kept me afloat, and I did what I needed to do. And I knew those babies weren't mine, so I never had to worry about I mean, I cried a lot, but I didn't have to worry about wanting to bring one home or, like, quitting my job or starting something over, because that's all I ever wanted to do was work with the baby since I was seven years old. And I was living my dream. So I really had a real for me personally and now talking to lots of families after, if you stay in that space, you can stay there a long time and it's really hard to cut out of it. And so for me, space of grief of what happened and the guilt, the guilt of like, you did something to cause the baby to die, it's really weird. So our son died from a very rare one in a million. They said that two couples would find each other and both produce a child with this. It's one in a million that two people would do that. And I am adopted, so I don't know where I come from. And my husband, they grew up here their whole lives. And so we call each other the million-dollar couple because we have two other children. So it was out of our we didn't we didn't know. And I don't know my history, my background, but yeah, since we're the million-dollar couple, yeah. And so, yeah, that was a rough time, but I did it, and I wouldn't change anything. The only thing I would change, that's a lie. The only thing I would change in talking to other families is I would have held him longer, and I would have opened his blankets and I would have examined him the way new mothers do, just touch him over and over and open him up, dress him, bathe him. I would have done all those things that nobody knew was okay to offer me at the time. And so that's the only thing I would change. I would still lose him again if it meant I keep my other two children. And he wouldn't have been my first. He would have been my first. I would not have done it again. I would not have had more children. Knowing one in 25, it's a 25% one in four chance that another child will be born. And fun fact, we did try another time after, and our babies are IUI babies, so intrauterine insemination babies. And so we tried one more time, and that was the first time doing IUI that it didn't work. And so I knew, and my faith told me, God is telling you, Angela, this is it. You're going to go on and do bigger things. I didn't know that at the time, of course, in 2010, but I knew, looking back, I can see now that was the message back then.
[27:31] Michelle: So I want to know how A Legacy of Love came about because in your story, there was a time when you said at your lowest that you contemplated taking your own life. And the reason that you did not do it was your fear that your children would find you.
[27:54] Angela: Yes.
[27:56] Michelle: And so that, I can imagine, would be your absolute lowest point how did you climb out of that? How did aA Legacy of Love come out of that?
[28:14] Angela: How did I climb out of suicide ideation? Well, luckily, I didn't have a plan, but I had already felt a little bit dead, so I thought, I can't live like this. But they were two and four, like I said, and I just couldn't do that to know. I'd heard other stories. I have friends whose family found their loved ones, and I just couldn't do that. I could see how it hurt them. And I thought I can't do this to my babies. So my husband said, if you don't get out of bed, I'm going to call Dr. Boken. And that scared me because I thought Dr. Boken might be the one who would actually literally show up to my house and get me out of bed. She would be that one, you know? I just got up and I don't remember what happened, but I know I went back to work and I decided that when you lose a child at any age or range in pregnancy, there's a lot of people that will come out and tell you that they have too. It's almost like they need that permission to know you've had it. So now I can share with you that I have had that, too. And you wonder, like, oh, my God, how come you never told me you've been suffering this long? Like, this is big. How do you not tell somebody? And so a coworker back then, she's like, Well, I said, we need to start. Let's start a support group or something. She had just had a baby, and our kids would be exactly they're exactly the same age. Her son was born in March, I believe, no, May. And Daniel was born in June. Yeah. So I went to visit her, and he was a month old, and I got to hold him. And that was heart. Yeah, it was big. And so I said, we need to start a support group. There's got to be other people that have gone through this. And so, ironically, I met you. Remember? Kim de Young?
[30:07] Michelle: Yeah.
[30:08] Angela: So her sister was pregnant as well, the same year we were. And she had lost her daughter Madeline. Her sister. Yeah. So Denise is her sister. She had lost her daughter Madeline in February of 2010. And when I lost Daniel in June, she said, I learned later from Denise that Kim had asked if I would be Denise's nurse. And then I was pregnant and I wasn't her nurse. And so it didn't work out. But Denise still came to visit me very shortly. She brought me a book called I Will Carry You. I think I sent it to you. The only book I read, the first book I read back then. And then in it, she wrote a very nice, sweet little message. And then she and I connected, and I said, this is what. I want to do. And she's like, well, I'll help you. I know a couple of other girls. And so the group, she's a member of Gateway Church, and so she had connections there. She said we could meet in the church, blah blah. Her husband is a pastor there, a youth pastor, I think. And so we started the group. There were five of us, and we all connected. We all had a different story and we all grieved differently. But it felt good to be with other people, that you could say some of the crazy things that go through your mind after you lose a child. Like things you want to do, people you want to kill, regrets, and all that stuff. So it felt really good to connect with that. And out of that I just started researching how to run a support group, how to become a nonprofit, because I thought, this can really go far, there's got to be more than five of us. And so it just kind of grew out of that and made a Facebook page. Back then it was just Facebook. And so in October of, I believe, 2011, I believe, we had our first little October event, and I just got a bunch of pumpkins donated I love pumpkins donated to our group, our little group of five. We invited our family and friends to come and anybody else who had lost a child and just come and take a pumpkin home and talked about our group a little bit. Had a little barbecue at a park and stuff. So it was really small but intimate and sweet. And then after that, it just snowballed. And then I got more members in the group. Members meaning people coming to a support group. We decided we'd meet once a month, at the same time, same place, and people were just getting referred from the hospital, by other friends. Yeah. Since I worked in Mother Baby, it was a blessing in disguise, so I'd had access to them as well. And so met a ton of people who have come through the group and gotten what they needed out of it and moved on, which is the whole point of a support group. So we did that for probably eleven years after in the last maybe two, three years, the group has really taken a dip because now we're a one-man show. Angela only just me. Yeah. And so working full time, I have two teenagers, I have a husband, I have a home. It's hard. My job is heavy, hospice is heavy work, so I don't always have a lot left over for the group, unfortunately. But I can say we are still meeting just in a different way now. So we still meet at the same place, on different days, at different times, but on different days. But it's just me and it's every other month now, so we probably talk about that later. But I still get phone calls, I still get messages about so and so referred me. They said, you run a group. I was really interested. I'll tell them when we're meeting, and I'll meet them, and sometimes they show and sometimes they don't. And I totally get it, because if somebody had told me about a group, I would not have gone. I know I wouldn't have gone, but the group has done wonders for me. And you asked, how do you come out of that? Does talking about it help? And I have to say yes. Absolutely. That is how I crawled out of my dark hole, is by talking about Daniel and hearing other people's stories, and going to therapy. It got too big for me to do. It got too big for me to do by myself. And therapy? Yeah, I need to go back, actually, and do for what do you call that? A reset.
[34:38] Michelle: I'm a big believer in therapy, and it's been a constant in my life since I was a young adult. And from time to time, it's just like the last time was going through. Definitely when I lost my husband, went through a couple of years. But then when I retired, it's like these major life changes. It was like, I don't know how to retire. I've never done it before.
[35:06] Angela: And you worked your whole life.
[35:07] Michelle: Yeah, and I don't know how I'm going to react to not being a nurse anymore and not being with my people and the whole financial part so I'm a big believer, and I like how you did say that you probably wouldn't have gone to a support group, and I feel the same way. So after Ken passed away, lots of people were saying, you need to go to a support group. And I was like, yeah, okay, maybe. And I did try that, and it just wasn't for me. And I made a good try of it. For about six months, I went weekly, but what I was finding was that I was doing okay. And then I would go to the group, and then I would backslide. And so I was feeling worse right after. I don't know if that was the nurse's personality. You and I are both nurses. We're very self-sufficient. We know ourselves really well. We know how we operate. We know what feels good.
[36:19] Angela: We're always assessing.
[36:23] Michelle: And my friends and family would say, I noticed that you're worse after you go to your group. And I was like, yeah, for a long time I didn't want to realize that, but it's so individualized. So let's talk about grief because grief is very individualized. And I was on your Facebook page, and there was something that really just popped out at me, and it's this little thing that's talking about grief, and it says something to remember. There's no rulebook, there's no time frame, there's no judgment. Grief is as individual as a fingerprint. And do what is right for your soul. So talk about grief and how different people and different genders process it because we know that there are some differences.
[37:18] Angela: Yes. So grief is a funny thing. And you're right, it's very individualized. And talking to a lot of families and going through it myself. What I have learned in the past 13 years is that if the person that the tragedy happens to you person and the father don't come from a solid foundation or don't have one in place when they need it, then they will not be able to move forward. Not that they can't grieve, because they're grieving whether they have a foundation or not, but they will not be able to move forward. They get stuck. And there's another quote that says, grief is okay to go. It's okay to grieve, but it's not okay to stay in that place. And that's very true. So in the beginning, our group was only moms. And then I don't even remember how this came about, but we invited the dads, the partners, and that was like, duh, hello. But our society is not forgotten.
[38:19] Michelle: They're forgotten.
[38:19] Angela: They do not condone.
[38:22] Michelle: We forget them.
[38:23] Angela: Yeah. Because the mom and the baby bond, it is unique. And I think this is true and why the dads really can't grieve until after, but by then they're already forgotten because the mom is the focus now. But I think the men really cannot bond. I did 19 years in mother-baby, so I've seen all kinds of bonding until the baby's physically there. I think the mom, from the moment, even before we're pregnant, we've already started preparing our bodies, would you say, for potential life. Right. And so that's bonding and that's preparing your body, where you wear your seatbelt, what you're putting in your mouth, how much of it you're putting, who's smoking? Who is smoking? My gosh, my baby. Right. But the dad is oblivious to all that because he's not thinking about the baby in his belly.
[39:21] Michelle: Right.
[39:22] Angela: And so I think after the baby is born, that's when the dads bond. And you see, some will cry, some will scream, some will jump up and down, some will be in shock and pass out. Yeah. They're just like, holy moly, this is, what just came out of that? Oh my God. All kinds of stuff. But the dad that's given his dead baby, what do we do? For him, the birthing process is the same for a dead baby and a live baby. It's just the mom continues to get the care after, and the dad literally gets pushed to the corner because now it becomes about the mom. So the grief process is already stifled for him. As soon as that little baby is handed, no matter how big in the palm of his hand or on top of his chest, if he even wants to hold it, because nobody again is there to tell him, it's okay, daddy, you're still a daddy. Look at how beautiful you feel your baby. And it's unfortunate because I think they don't get that bonding experience with a live baby. It's almost like they didn't even have a baby. So some couples I've come across have lost their relationships, marriage, or togetherness. Yeah. And because they just cannot grieve. Not the same, but they're not in the same space.
[40:50] Michelle: One is staying stuck and the other one is moving forward because he was forced to.
[40:56] Angela: Nobody helped him. In that moment we miss the opportunity in the hospital when the baby is born to immediately give it to them. We give it to the mom. Right. We put it on the mom's chest. We never once consider or even ask, when the baby's born, dad, can I hand him or her? And that's where it starts. That's where the grieving process starts. So if you think about the man, he's already been forgotten. He's long forgotten. And we missed that opportunity because by then he's come to terms with it. Men are very analytical. Most men. Most men. And moving on, this is not good. We can't be crying all day. We know we have to move on. And that's the tendency that our society has. Yes, you must move on. That's what everybody promotes because we don't want to get stuck in that space. But you do have to feel it because it will follow you till you acknowledge it. And so it's very important to acknowledge the men. And so we started inviting the men, the partners, and it was a beautiful thing. Our men started forming their own little chat groups, their own little private lines, and a couple of them would hang out here and there, and became really good friends. And that's how men grieve. Given what they've been through and not been able to experience and verbalize, all I could think about was Daniel like, dude, look what you're doing. Look, little dude, you were not meant to come home with me. So I say this all the time, and a lot of people have problems with it, but it's okay. I know now, not back then, but I know now that Daniel was never mine to have because at birth he was, from conception, he was going to die. I was never going to bring this baby home. He was sent to me to do bigger things. But I would like to have him back. But if I can't have him back, I'd rather see other families live his legacy, what he was all about. So out of that, the men started coming more frequently. And then, as you say, you have something so valid, which is why the group kind of took a little dip, I think, in attendance is that you felt yourself getting worse or feeling like I was doing so good. And then hearing other people's tragedies and chaos, just brought me back. It brought you back, yeah. And so I remember Dr. Dave Sine. He does hospice for pediatrics here. And he told me, you can't be supporting now, it takes at least two years before you can start supporting people. Well, that like little firing be like, oh, yes, I can you don't know me.
[43:46] Michelle: Give you a challenge.
[43:48] Angela: Yeah, he gave me a challenge. No, I can do it. But he was right. In the long run, I give such good advice because I'm very observant. Had some PTSD in my past, but also losing Daniel was the biggest of it all, and so he was right. He was right. But for me, it worked out, and I'm okay. I never contemplated suicide again after that one time, but I did become more vigilant in other ways that are unhealthy for my other living children, which is a commonality among all of us who have lost kids. I don't think we like to talk about it because some don't like to talk about it because it's embarrassing in the sense that if you haven't experienced it, you don't understand it, and you think, oh, my God, those poor kids. Well, like I said, I'm very blunt sometimes until you've held your dead baby or sat in front of his casket, you really don't know. And so you don't know what you're going to do in a lot of things in life. So I try not to be very judgmental when I hear people say, I would never do that because I used to be that way, too. I would never survive losing a child. Oh, my gosh, my little lily pad. No, she's my world. No, I don't know what I would I survived. I survived. I'm a little more weirder now, but I know it. And so I'm conscious of it, and I try to tone it down a little. My kids are aware of it. They understand. They don't remember their brother. Another thing I regret, I don't have any pictures of them altogether. My husband just didn't think they could handle holding their dead baby brother. Now we know better. I know better. And actually, I would tell all the families, bring the kids in, because you're going to want that memory. So all my regrets, I try to make sure I tell the parents in the families so that they don't have anything to regret.
[45:46] Michelle: I mean, that's so valuable that you've been through it. You've been through it all. And the relationship, your husband's grief, your kids, your regrets. You have all these tools to share with the families to lessen their load going forward. And is that just like something that's part of your personality, or do you think it also comes from you being a nurse?
[46:21] Angela: Great question. So as my kids grow older, they're now 15 and 17, so my daughter will graduate next year. I now remember when she was born. I'll still have my son, but my firstborn leaving. Then mom will tell you, any family will tell you it was rough, but I have found myself preparing for that. Back when she was like, in 8th grade.
[46:48] Michelle: Yeah, you do.
[46:49] Angela: I started going. Yeah. And I knew it wasn't going to be healthy for me. I wasn't going to grieve in an acceptable manner because I've already lost a child and I am losing her out of my home. She's not there anyway. I don't know why I don't get that way when I talk about my son, but only my daughter, because she's first, I guess. Yeah.
[47:12] Michelle: And it's just such a, it is a loss in a way, because you won't have that day-to-day interaction with her.
[47:25] Angela: And Shelly Mena, who's a very good nurse friend of ours, she told me, we prepare our kids to go like that's our whole purpose right now is everything we do is for the kids. Right? Yeah, but who prepares us and so you're left just like and her husband's a big, strong ex-cop, and she said, he just like, bawls. And I'm picturing him, like, if it can bring him to his knees, I am done for. So I knew I had to start preparing myself for her graduation and stuff and leaving because she definitely wants to leave and I'm going to need to go see some therapy. So I did start my therapy, but you know what I found, I'm doing, and I need help. Michelle, I cannot rescue enough dogs, but only ones that are in need, only the ones on the side of the road that are starving, dumped in the country. I have rescued three, actually four, but I managed to give one away. One went to a very good, loving home, but I've got three new ones now, plus my other two that we already had before everything happened. What I want people to understand is I'm not 100% knowing what everything I'm doing, but I can step back and I can see why I'm doing it. I'm not ready to stop being a mom. My heart still tells me I have a 13-year-old and he would need me for still a long time. So what I'm doing is I'm kind of finding things that need me in that way, that mothering way, because I'm not ready to stop. I don't want any more children. I like to sleep, but I still have that yearning, that burning yearning, aching to be somebody's, caregiver in that way, somebody to be totally dependent on me, look to me and dogs are the best. They love me whether I have makeup on or do my hair, or have clothes on. They don't care. As long as I love them and they love me back, then I'm feeling my need. But it can be a lot. Five dogs is a lot. So I have to be constant. Yeah. Oh, he's so done. Like, two dogs ago, he was done. Yeah, but here's where the men and the women grieve differently. And it's a valid point, because I'm not ready to see my kids off and go live that retired life or live that empty nester life. I don't feel that because I have a bond with my child from before birth. He didn't get that. And so he's ready. He's like, God gave us our kids. He's very matter-of-fact. He knew what he was doing. He gave you a girl. He gave me a boy. I don't want anymore either. Stop bringing the dogs home. And so I get that. I really get that. And I wish I was still in the hospital so that I could tell people that, because I tend to sit with people like this, and I just get on their level. I would sit on their beds. I would sit, and hold their babies. When I hold a dead baby for the first time, I could feel the healing, like, just happening. It was bizarre. It was bizarre. But I'll never forget that first baby. I think God sent her to me on a purpose. I think God did everything I did because she had not started to change colors. The only thing was her lips were like ruby red, but she was beautiful. Olive skin all the way through her hands, her feet, everything. And she had no bruising, no pooling of blood, or any she was full-headed. She was the most beautiful baby ever. And I remember holding her and thinking, wow, look at me holding this dead baby. Of course, the mom was devastated, but all the mom could see was me cradling her like she was alive. I wanted to give that memory to her. And so just little things like that. I know God sent me a baby that was like that to be the first one that I embraced after an intervention. Yeah.
[51:39] Michelle: Well, I imagine that people have said things to you knowing your story, and these people are friends, family, coworkers, medical professionals, just strangers, and talk about some of the things that people have said that were hurtful, that did not help, and some of the things that were very healing for you.
[52:06] Angela: The number one thing people say is, it's just so unfortunate. I feel bad for them to be I know. I guess it's me giving them grace again. I feel bad for them because they just don't understand, and that's a good thing. Thank God he didn't bring him home and he didn't die at home, or you didn't get to know him like you do the others. Yeah. Or what did he look like? Was he deformed? Just curious, which I think everybody has I don't know if that's an appropriate question or not, whether you're my friend or not.
[52:49] Michelle: It's not.
[52:50] Angela: It's not. Okay. It's not. Well, I just don't want to be so mean to people because they don't know. This is why we talk about it. If it's not an appropriate question, well, then shame on them. But for that reason, I've never shared his picture in 13 years. I don't put it out on our page. His feet, I love baby feet. They're like an obsession, which is another sickness I have, and I just don't want anyone to say that to me. So maybe in the back of my head, I do know that's inappropriate. But he was perfect, by the way, for all your listeners. His kidneys did not cause him to have any facial deformities or anything like that. He was perfect. He looked like my daughter, actually, when she was born. So full head of hair, beautiful chunky cheeks, everything but yeah. And then are you going to have more kids? Well, you tell me. If one died, would you want another one? Right.
[53:49] Michelle: Just like a replacement.
[53:51] Angela: Right, exactly.
[53:52] Michelle: Yeah. And I imagine that because I have heard these comments of when someone's grieving, it's like, Honey, that was five years ago. You need to move on. Yes. So the underlying tone is, stop talking about him. You'll be much healthier if you just move on and pretend like this didn't happen. The other thing is, you have two other children. Like, you are so blessed.
[54:29] Angela: You're so lucky.
[54:30] Michelle: And a boy and a girl. Yeah.
[54:36] Angela: Like count your blessings. Yeah.
[54:38] Michelle: You are such a person who gives so much grace. Just saying what you said right now about they don't know, and I was like, that to me. Brought back the grace that Christ gave us when he was suffering from his crucifixion on the cross and saying, Lord, forgive them for they know not what they do. You are passing that on. And if there's one message that we could get out today, it's like, educate yourself on that.
This is not about you. This is about the person who is grieving, and who has suffered this loss. It's like the two golden words that you could say are I'm sorry and a touch a hug and leave it at that.
[55:47] Angela: Or nothing.
[55:47] Michelle: Or nothing.
[55:48] Angela: Or nothing.
[55:50] Michelle: For medical professionals, too, because we do it. We're people. And some of the most hurtful things have come from medical professionals, where you're kind of like, you should know better. There's a lot of press on this. There's a lot of press on grief, there's a lot of press on trauma. And you're in the profession where you are dealing with people who suffer loss every day, and people's families and you got to be a little bit more on your game, right? And learn how to stop after I'm sorry. Just learn how to stop. Silence is really hard, and it's powerful, though. It's really hard. Practice it.
[56:40] Angela: Yeah.
[56:40] Michelle: We want to fill that space. We want to fill it, and there's nothing that can fill it, so just let the space just be.
[56:50] Angela: Before Daniel, I was that exact person you're talking about, and I regret every patient. I avoided the baby. I avoided the family. I went and did what I needed to do and get out, get out. And now, I didn't experience that myself because I think I know because I worked there. I got way above I got, like, royalty. You know, the UK and Australia do it right. They have grief rooms and you stay, know, and you grieve with your baby. I don't know if you can deliver there and stay there, but it's all in one room. There's nothing more tragic than having to go to another floor and hear and see other babies in the halls or getting poked and crying. I see a lot of comments on Facebook and this is what I tell myself. What I wouldn't give for your situation right now, whatever they're going through with their kids, their babies, like, we didn't sleep or they have to wear a helmet or whatever, what I wouldn't give for your situation. My son, to be in a wheelchair. Of course, I don't want that, but he would be here with me. Right, but, yeah, you're right. All the things that people say when people have told me, but you have other children. And so I have been blunt and I have told them, well, which one of yours would you give back? Which one of yours would you like to have died? Angela, that's so mean. That's essentially what you're saying. Yeah, I put it back on them and they don't like it. So that's how we know awareness is not making its way out to everyone yet.
[58:36] Michelle: So you had another amazing Facebook post and you've said this many times in your social media and you've talked about it a lot, how important it is to say your son's name, to hear your son's name, to have him referred to as a person. And so in this post, it says, if you know someone who has lost a very important person and you're afraid to mention them because you think you might make them sad by reminding them that they died, you're not reminding them they didn't forget they died. What you're reminding them of is that you remembered that they lived. And this is a great gift.
[59:28] Angela: 100%. Yeah.
[59:30] Michelle: And that person could have not said it any better. That was a quote by Elizabeth Edwards. And so important to talk about your son, to talk about his brief but very powerful and impactful life, to say his name. But I think so many times, we don't want to make that person feel uncomfortable. And like this quote said, it's like you're not reminding them that they died. We have not forgotten that. We live with it every day. By talking about our person, you're remembering them. And that means the world to us.
[01:00:21] Angela: Absolutely. Yeah. The word comfortable, you said something right now, and it's true. Most people think in their thought process because they're uneducated. I don't want to make you uncomfortable. You look like you're in a good place. So I don't want to say or do anything that reminds you of your tragedy. No, it's you that don't want to be uncomfortable saying their name. It's not us that are uncomfortable. It's you that is uncomfortable. And if they're really a good friend and they're really somebody you remembered their loved one, I promise you with all my heart and soul, you are never going to make them cry tears of sadness. It would be a tear of appreciation and gratefulness that you remembered my son. Somebody said it could be multiple people, and I don't know who they are. They've never revealed themselves to me. But somebody puts little things on my son's grave every now and then. I don't know who it is, and I don't want to know because, to me, there's somebody who remembers my son. Somebody's coming here out of their day, whether it's to visit their own child or not, and they're putting something on my son's grave. So we collect them and we have a little shelf with his items that people have left, and I don't know who they're from, but that's another way of telling me I remember Daniel because that place, his grave, it's a double-edged sword for me. So to have somebody come there unexpectedly on their own, uninvited, intentionally on their own, is just amazing. So if you remember somebody's loss, adult, child, whatever, Grandparent, don't be afraid to say, I thought about your grandma the other day, and I have such good memories. It's not going to bring tears of sadness. It's going to bring tears of joy that she lives on in other people as well. I'm not the only one who remembers my son because that is our worst fear. We don't parent our children who are dead the way live children are parented. And we tell people, you're still a mom even though your first baby has passed and they haven't had any. I know a lot of people, whose first baby died, and so they don't have any children that you can see, but they still are a parent. You birth a child, so you are still a parent. So how we parent our child is by speaking their name, decorating their grave, and posting about what we wish we could have back. And if that is uncomfortable or if you have to tell yourself, man, here they go again, posting again. Think about it. Which one of your children would you give back so that you could experience what we experienced? That's an impossible thought. You can't even fathom doing that. So take some time.
[01:03:10] Michelle: That's a great question to help that person ponder their words and their actions and how they're impacting others.
[01:03:20] Angela: It's a harsh, it's an in-your-face kind of question, but that is child loss.
[01:03:25] Michelle: Yeah.
[01:03:25] Angela: And it happens every day. Every day. And just our little community, it happens every day. If you drive through Tuesday's Angels there's another. There's always a new grave being dug, there's always fresh dirt. So it happens every day. Just because people don't say post our face. I lost my baby today. She lived a whole three minutes. Grandma and Grandpa are getting sick and we might lose them. We don't talk about that, you know what I mean? On social media, for all its bad, it does do some good, and you can stay abreast of the latest situations, but we don't talk about our child passing. My goal has always been to create a memorial park here in town, there are other towns that have them and have a space where parents can come tend to the garden and have their child's name, their plants, and trees. People donate land, farmers donate land all the time for new houses and I wish just once they would. Of course, I have to ask, I guess just donate me a little square or something so that we can have a place to memorialize our babies and plant living things that are going to do good and bring people together and stuff. So that's always been a long-term goal of mine. But no one's come to me asking if they can give me land.
[01:04:47] Michelle: Well, like you said, you have to ask.
[01:04:49] Angela: You have to ask.
[01:04:50] Michelle: And I'm one for that too. I think that is part of the nurse personality, is like, we don't like asking for help, but I've started turning that around in the last few years because it's just like, you're not going to get what you don't ask for. At least there's a chance, right?
[01:05:11] Angela: And what's the worst that would happen?
[01:05:12] Michelle: They're going to say no.
[01:05:14] Angela: I have no land anyway, so it's not like you've taken anything away from me. You're right. But again, going back to being a one man show, as soon as I can get some people together who are committed and dedicated like me, I'm not going to let the group go. It's faltered a little bit, it weighed down, but then we're making a comeback. It's a lot about your group.
[01:05:37] Michelle: So A Legacy of Love. You are the founder and you're the leader of that group right now. What do you do to educate yourself on the needs of families, and women who have lost their children?
[01:05:53] Angela: So luckily I made some really good contacts in the hospital and the social worker is there, we stay in contact. And before I left, that was my dream, was to change the way Mother Baby I knew I couldn't do a lot with the rest of the units because I wasn't there, but I knew I could make a difference in our unit and I knew what needed to change. So before I left Mother Baby, I had little check marks in my head, little dots that I needed to X out, and stuff. And one of them was just educating the staff there on child loss. So I think I did that about pictures, the importance of pictures, whether they want them or not, you still take them. We found a way to do that. At least when I was there, we had known I worked with Carol Chavez, who's no longer there, but we found a way to do that. And then the other thing was to let people know that not to know congratulations when you're carrying your dead baby from one floor to the next, wrap them in a purple blanket so at least staff members would know. The chiming of the bells when a new baby is born. I'm so torn on that because we don't want to take away from a live baby in a family's joy. But we also have a family who's not ever going to experience that and never will. Never will have a joyful birth experience, never after. And so doesn't matter if their babies are healthy after. They will never experience childbirth the way they did that first time. And that's true across the board. So it's forever altered, just like you're forever altered if you ever experience it. So that's why I say I'm so torn on the chime. But we did it for a little while, and then it came back. And then a good, dear friend of mine who's on my board now, Mara Lawson, is the educator now for Mother Baby, and she credits me for helping her do what she does now when she has a demise or when she's teaching the new staff about that. And she does have a portion of that included some education because there's no education when you come into the hospital and babies die. You get taught how to prepare a body when they die, you get a bath, right? You get all this stuff. You get a body bag. So no one's like, oh, no, right. What do we do for these babies? We wrap them in a chux and we throw them in a transport bassinet and we toss them in the fridge. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. It was now, because of my son and the education, I was able to leave Mara like, let me tell you what doesn't work. If I knew you did this to my son, this, this, and this, tell the families to do this, tell all my regrets, is the basic stuff of what I tried to leave with. These I do. Yeah. And I research a lot. I stay up to date. I took myself to some Perinatal Bereavement courses, which is the gold standard across all hospitals. Oh, gosh, I even met her once, the one who started it in Wisconsin. Do you know that little purple card? She was the one who developed that. So I can't think right now. Sunday, my brain's on off. But she started in Wisconsin, and it was already in use when I got there, but not all of the parts. So I took myself to her perinatal bereavement courses. And I became a perinatal Bereavement coordinator in the sense that I just educated myself on what's going on around the world and how are people, other hospitals dealing with these things. So the other big thing that I think if I could get one message out to the hospital would be to make follow-up calls, send cards, and keep track of that somewhere on the spreadsheet. So when I left the hospital, I know I think I asked for the stats and the average in a year of babies that came to our floor. That's not including anything else. The, ER, whatever. Peds, NICU, wasn't it? It was just mother baby was 52 babies a year die. And so that's just mother-baby. So 52 people over ten years. That's a lot of people that I have not met 5200 people or whatever, however much that equals. So I just feel like if I contemplated suicide, I know other people and I consider myself a very strong, resilient person. I know other people have done it too, or get stuck in their grief, and I want to be a part of that. So it fills my soul and it helps me remember why I lost my son if I can help other people. So I make it a point to research, to talk to other families. Tell me when they come to the group, tell me about your experience. If they feel safe enough to do it, they will. And you never hear the good stuff. You always hear that one bad thing. So I will tell Mara or I'll tell somebody I know, like, hey, I just want to let you know I have this member that came through and this is what they said was done to their baby. And now, granted, if it's an ER loss, I do tell them, here's me giving grace again. The ER is an emergency persona, right? They don't live on compassion, in time, in gentle touch. They don't function like that or they would not survive the ER. And so if you go in with a miscarrying child or pregnancy with no heartbeat, you are not a priority to them. They cannot save what you need. And so once you get up to the floor, your compassion is going to be. And so when a lot of them would complain about the ER, and I have to tell them because they're not bad nurses, because they're like that, but they're also not compassionate nurses. So just know that. But there's no one there telling them or knowing in the ER. Do it better. Have a team of people that you can dedicate to know when it comes in. Have a team of people that we had UBC, like, make up a little co-UBC or co-unit or whatever, and have a chaplain ready, have a nurse ready, have an LVN ready, have an aide ready to do all these things for their miscarried baby. Because they're not going to go up to the floor and get the treatment because they're going to go home. That is so valuable. So just things like that, it doesn't have to cost money, you don't have to build a new building or market a new plan. Just listen to those of us who have gone through it and the feedback we're giving you.
[01:12:35] Michelle: Have you considered ever getting on the conference circuit? The reason I ask you this is because years ago I went to a conference on developmental care and they had breakout groups and stuff and the most valuable breakout group that I've ever been to was a parent panel of babies in the NICU. And some had lost their babies after a very long stay, some had lost their babies very shortly and some babies had survived with lots of just anomalies.
[01:13:17] Angela: Yeah.
[01:13:17] Michelle: And to hear those parents as a nurse, like saying, these are the things that really helped me that the nurses and the doctors said and did and these are the things that really set me back. I changed my whole practice from then on because it was like your story as a parent is so valuable to us as nurses, as caregivers, just people in the medical profession, and then you have the bonus of being a nurse and having all that insight and I just think that it changed my practice. It was so powerful. Like your words matter, Michelle. You need to educate yourself. You need to learn how to be a support to those without causing harm to them. It's never intentional, but we have to go further. We can't just say, I didn't mean to cause this person harm. That wasn't my intent. Of course, we know that. But you're a professional, you're educated. You need to go further and figure out exactly what they need in that moment and to be able to provide that in a meaningful way, it changed everything.
[01:14:53] Angela: Wow.
[01:14:54] Michelle: You would be so impactful with your story and just consider it like you need another thing to do.
[01:15:06] Angela: I wish I didn't have to work full time so that I could do this because I would dedicate all my time to this because I am passionate about it. But like I said, my therapist's invaluable thing, she told me, you have to prioritize, Angela. And unfortunately, the group could technically be run by other people and I was like, oh God, it wouldn't be me. And what if they do say something wrong? I can't let it go because I don't feel it would fall into hands that have the best would see the bigger picture. So if I were to give it up to the hospital or give it up to I don't know that people want to go to the hospital and have a support group, that could be very triggering because that's where their memories are coming from. We are only one hospital and the hospital owns everything almost. So I have to remain independent. And it's hard. It's heavy, heavy work, but my son is worth it, and that's what keeps me going. And all the babies that are up there with him and celebrating and living their best lives while we're down here figuring it out, that's why I do it. That's why I stay in touch with these people. And it's my personal cell phone, my personal email. Nobody else checking it. It's not another person. It's me. And a lot of people have told me, Angela, you're not taking very good care of yourself. It's like, I never get to get out of that state of mind that, like you said, going back, retraumatized every time, but then who will do it? And so I think even my therapist was like, well, it doesn't have to be you if it's causing you stress. I said, it does have to be me because if I'm not doing this, like you said, as a nurse, I have to find purpose. I have to be caring for something. If it's not the animals, it's got to be the people. And I know when I retire, this is my plan. If anybody wants to give me land, I'll use it for this, too. I have a sanctuary, and I want to run a hospice for animals.
[01:17:03] Michelle: Oh, my gosh.
[01:17:04] Angela: It's a very big thing up in the northern part of the state, and people flock to it because there are other people that love their animals as much as themselves. It's not that weird, but most people don't want to see suffering if it can be alleviated. And so that's one thing I've learned in hospice. Yes, I'm hurting. It's not what I want to happen, but how is my loved one suffering? And so the same with the animals. We don't deserve animals 99.9% of the time. They're just such good crutches.
[01:17:38] Michelle: They tolerate us.
[01:17:39] Angela: Yeah. So that's my goal.
[01:17:42] Michelle: Well, all right, I think we're going to wrap it up. So we need to know, how do we find you and how do we find your nonprofit, A  Legacy of Love?
[01:17:53] Angela: So I have a Facebook page. It's A Legacy of Love, and it's the only one. We are the only support group that's non-denominational here in the county. And you can also call me on my cell. My information is all on the website, all my personal information, my email,
[01:18:09] Michelle: I will put that in the show notes.
[01:18:10] Angela: Yeah. And then I live here in Visalia, CA. So if you see me, say hi. Tell me your story, tell me your baby's name, and I want to know. I want to meet I want to meet my son's friend's parents. I want to meet them. That's my belief. I know when we talked to our priest that he know everyone thinks babies become angels, but they're not angels. Angels have already existed. They are angel-like. And so you see a mom of angel all the time. To me, our Catholic faith says you don't become an angel, but you are angel-like. And absolutely, these babies are angel-like. So definitely I want to meet the parents of my son's friends up in heaven.
[01:18:55] Michelle: I love your spirit. I love your laugh and your smile, your energy. And I really believe that you were put here by God to carry out this mission, and you have really given it glory. You've given Daniel glory. And I really appreciate you coming here and crying with me in my closet.
[01:19:25] Angela: Thank you for making me cry. And it's been 13 years, and I still feel those feelings as I did that day.
[01:19:33] Michelle: And you will at 14 and 15 and 25, and it's not going to stop. It's not going to stop.
[01:19:40] Angela: We can do better as a society. I feel we can do better. Thank you for having this platform, for letting me come on and during the month of October even, and celebrating, because, as I said, this is like a big birthday party for everybody, because this is how we parent.
[01:19:57] Michelle: Well, you've done it one story at a time and one conversation at a time, and I know you will continue that.
[01:20:05] Angela: Thank you.
[01:20:06] Michelle: And, you know, at the end, I warned you that we do the five-minute snippet.
[01:20:11] Angela: Oh, yes.
[01:20:12] Michelle: And I gave you grace, and I said that you didn't have to do it if we were having a somber conversation. And what did you say to me? No, there will be no somberness.
[01:20:24] Angela: No somberness.
[01:20:25] Michelle: And I felt that today, I felt like a celebratory spirit. So thank you for sharing that with me and our listeners. Now I'm going to bring up my secret questions because I didn't want you to see these ahead of time so that you prepared your answers.
[01:20:41] Angela: Okay.
[01:20:42] Michelle: So you know all the answers to these. Would you rather people be more compassionate or more forgiving?
[01:20:53] Angela: Compassionate. That's it.
[01:20:56] Michelle: Okay. What's the last thing you've done that you were really proud of?
[01:21:02] Angela: I helped a family accept the death of their loved one to where they were happy at the end and not crying, and they thanked me for that, which is beautiful. You know, death doesn't have to be somber all the time.
[01:21:21] Michelle: You know, Cydney Alvarado was my dad's hospice nurse.
[01:21:24] Angela: Really?
[01:21:25] Michelle: Yeah. And what a blessing. You guys are amazing.
[01:21:29] Angela: Thank you.
[01:21:31] Michelle: Would you rather entertain children at an amusement park dressed as a clown or as an animal?
[01:21:38] Angela: Animal.
[01:21:39] Michelle: You don't like clowns?
[01:21:40] Angela: I don't like clowns.
[01:21:41] Michelle: I think I remember that about you.
[01:21:44] Angela: There's something about them. I don't know. I think I watched It at an early age, and I probably shouldn't have.
[01:21:51] Michelle: Okay. What brand or products do you buy because you feel they're trustworthy?
[01:21:57] Angela: Chai syrup and chai tea. I trust that with all my heart and soul. It just makes me happy.
[01:22:05] Michelle: This is pumpkin spice season and I know you're big on it.
[01:22:06] Angela: I live for it. I live for all things pumpkin, chai, everything. Yeah.
[01:22:10] Michelle: Okay. Would you rather play beach volleyball when it's snowing or when it's 100 degrees?
[01:22:16] Angela: Snowing.
[01:22:17] Michelle: We already have too much damn heat.
[01:22:19] Angela: Right? I think I've done that, and I almost died. So I'd rather have snow and play beach volleyball.
[01:22:25] Michelle: What's the first impression you want to give people?
[01:22:28] Angela: I'm a good person. I have a good heart. I don't always feel that way, but I want people to know that I actually am a softie inside. And I do care about people. I really do care about people, whether they deserve it or not, whether they make me challenge my thoughts on that. I want people to think that I'm a good person, to know that I'm a good person, and I would do anything for them. If I could do it, I would do it. I don't want to see you suffer. Yeah.
[01:22:56] Michelle: I think anyone who has heard this interview today will know that immediately. There's no doubt. Would you rather have a pet owl or a giraffe?
[01:23:08] Angela: Oh, Lord, that's a hard one. I think I want a giraffe.
[01:23:13] Michelle: Got to get a lot of space. You need a farmer to donate some land.
[01:23:17] Angela: This is the third request now for land.
[01:23:20] Michelle: Any farmers out there listening?
[01:23:21] Angela: Any giraffes need a home, I can provide the space.
[01:23:26] Michelle: If you could hire any wedding singer, who would you choose and what song would it be?
[01:23:34] Angela: I would choose Luther Vandross, and I would have him sing oh, gosh. Whatever he wanted, because he could sing whatever he wanted.
[01:23:47] Michelle: He could sing the ABC.
[01:23:49] Angela: He could sing all the songs to me.
[01:23:53] Michelle: Would you rather discover a faster method of air travel or land travel?
[01:23:58] Angela: Land.
[01:23:59] Michelle: You're not an air person. No, I agree. I'm a nervous flyer. I just think it's faster.
[01:24:11] Angela: I don't feel secure.
[01:24:12] Michelle: Okay, it's secure. It's like, how could this plane be floating amongst the clouds?
[01:24:17] Angela: Because I don't understand. So I'm insecure about that. It's really big. If it crashes ow. Ouch. Whereas the car, I may have a second to turn or stop or I'm on land.
[01:24:28] Michelle: More control, right?
[01:24:30] Angela: Yes. I am a little bit like you may have noticed.
[01:24:34] Michelle: Okay. Do you have a favorite teacher who is not your husband?
[01:24:39] Angela: No.
[01:24:39] Michelle: Or a teacher who made a big impact on your life?
[01:24:42] Angela: That's the best question. Mrs. Gladys Rich. She was my kindergarten teacher at Houston Elementary. I'm a child of the ghetto, and she had I just told somebody this. She had the best because I think we're lacking this today. This is a great question. We don't have a generation of kids right now that are very teachable and their parents are not very approachable. And so it makes it really hard to be a teacher nowadays, and I feel no way could I do that job. And so I really hats off to all the teachers. But Mrs. Rich she was kind. She was older than snot. She smoked in her little old Mercedes. It was like a silver color. I remember because when I saw her doing that, I was like, Mrs. Rich. But I remember she had tons of gray hair. It was poofy, and she wore, like, little MooMoos. And I just loved her. Every area in her classroom had a section, and one was like baby dolls in the kitchen and almost like the wife mama part. That's where I wanted to go all the time, but sometimes I couldn't. I had to go to the coloring painting station. But she just loved me and would hug Mrs. Rich. I loved her.
[01:26:02] Michelle: Would you rather race someone on a jet ski or a dirt bike?
[01:26:07] Angela: Oh, jet ski.
[01:26:08] Michelle: Okay.
[01:26:09] Angela: Yeah. Fun. I think too much dirt in my face is not good.
[01:26:14] Michelle: Okay, last question. Would you rather live in an isolated cabin for a whole year or the world's most crowded city?
[01:26:28] Angela: Cabin. It's too people, too peopley. Hearing the owls and the crickets, the shuffling of the birds moving from tree to tree, the smell of the cedar and the pines, and assuming I'm in the Sequoia, but yeah, in a cabin, for sure. Yeah. Building a fire, roasting marshmallows. Absolutely.
[01:26:52] Michelle: Yes. I want to come to your cabin, Angela. Thank you so much. This was worth the wait.
[01:27:00] Angela: Oh, thank you.
[01:27:01] Michelle: I think I started asking you in May, I feel like it was longer than but that's okay. And it was worth the wait.
[01:27:12] Angela: Thank you.
[01:27:13] Michelle: Thank you so much for your messages and everything that you're doing, and thank you for Daniel.
[01:27:22] Angela: My pleasure. Thank you for preparing so well to ask these questions. Like I said in the beginning, people don't want to talk about it, and it's hard. But I really, from the bottom of my heart, appreciate you opening your platform for this, because it does mean a lot. It means a lot to a lot of people that you may never even meet. But getting it out there, if it can just make somebody feel like, oh, my God, somebody else gets it. We do want to help. And everybody has good intentions. They don't know how to say or do it. And so, like I say, give them the benefit of the doubt, because it's so hard to live in hate and anger, and it keeps you stuck. And I don't want people to be stuck because there is life after child loss. There is life. It's just different. It just looks different, and it's harder. But it can be done. It can be done.
[01:28:14] Michelle: And you've done it so beautifully.
[01:28:17] Angela: Thank you.
[01:28:18] Michelle: So have a great rest of your Sunday.
[01:28:21] Angela: I will. I'm going to go to Target all by myself.
[01:28:24] Michelle: I love Target shopping sprees!
[01:28:27] Angela: Yes.
[01:28:27] Michelle: All right, take care.
[01:28:28] Angela: Thank you. You too.