Preemie Dad, Author, and Advocate, Adam Wood

[00:01] Michelle: When retired army veteran Adam Wood, with tours both in Iraq and Afghanistan, tells you he would rather be back in combat than live the NICU experience, you know, it's got to be brutal. But amongst the brutality of the NICU, the sweetest of infants live, sometimes for a very long time. And in Adam and Jenn's case, their son Brady lived there for 135 days. And what did Adam do in those 135 days? He paid attention. And then he became the fiercest advocate for preemies, their families, nurses, and doctors everywhere.  Listen as Adam recounts NICU stories of heartache, hope, and humor, with even a budding bromance thrown in. In the five-minute snippet, Adam has the cleanest house and ears on the block. Here's Adam Wood. Well, Hi, Adam. Welcome to the show.
[01:21] Adam: Thanks for having me on. I appreciate you.
[01:24] Michelle: I am so glad you're here. From the moment I saw you on Instagram, first of all, I just instantly fell in love with everything that you're doing and I said, I'm going to have to have him on the show one day, so my dream came true, and here you are. So thank you so much for being here.
[01:49] Adam: I appreciate you saying that. And I don't know about dreams coming true, but I'll do my best to live up to that. But thank you.
[01:55] Michelle: You're going to be great. You're a pro. So you helped me do my first Instagram LIVE, so I was your guest for that. And that was so fun. I was like super nervous and you just made me feel so at ease, so I appreciate that.
[02:12] Adam: Oh, no problem at all. I remember I did it for the first time a year or two ago and had no clue about Instagram and honestly just thought it was all about teenagers and TikTok and trends and I just was not for that but found a really good, positive way to use Instagram in the last couple of years. And it's been great to do that and use it for what it can be truly used for, to help people, cheer people up and I think share some interesting stories that are happening.
[02:43] Michelle: Yeah, I agree. You sure have used it to such a great benefit for so many people. And we'll talk about your Instagram in a little bit, but first I just want you to give our audience kind of an overview of your NICU journey and then we'll kind of dive into the particulars a little bit later, but just start with that.
[03:07] Adam: Sure. Well, our journey started like a lot of families' journeys. We actually went through IVF and unlike a lot of families they have trouble conceiving and that's usually where they turn to the route of IVF. My wife actually suffers from a genetic disease called polycystic kidney disease, PKD. Her mom had an uncle who both had transplants as a result. It's one of those progressive ones that eventually, at some point, you are going to need a kidney transplant. And my wife was really apprehensive about passing that gene on to her kids. She knew what it was like. She had gone through it with her mom and her family. And so we actually went through IVF because some people had told us that there's a potential way where we can look at the genes, do a study of them, and then potentially not have them be affected in those eggs that we use, because they're only in about 50% of the eggs or sperm or whatever that is. So there's a chance that we could actually find those eggs and use the ones that did not carry that gene and be able to have a little bit more peace of mind. I was okay with going with that. While I know it was a hard disease for a lot of people, it was very manageable. And with the way science has progressed over the years, potentially if we had a son or daughter in 30, 40 years when that came time or more, we would probably find a lot of things in modern science that would alleviate the need for kidneys and all the issues with transplants. But we went through all that. We went through IVF at Yale, New Haven. We went through four different times of going through the process with the eggs and then not taking. So we would go through a couple of days and it just wouldn't progress through. We got to the point where we really weren't sure what the next steps were going to be. So we ended up trying one more time in a more relaxed and I would say progressive approach at CNY in New York, which is about 2 hours from where we are at. And it was a very different environment. It almost felt more like a spa, very relaxing. Then at Yale, which was very clinical, we had a lot better success there. So we went through the whole process. My wife went up every week, did lipid drips to help her with the baby, did everything humanly possible that she could do to make sure that we had a viable egg and to make sure that the baby progressed along all the appointments, everything she needed to do, reading all the books, so on and so forth. There's a lot of parents. At about 23 weeks, my wife started having really bad high blood pressure, and part of this was potentially due to her kidney disease. So a lot of women have preeclampsia, so they have elevated blood pressure as a result. Well, my wife having polycystic kidney disease kind of added to that. While there have been some studies, there's not a great amount of studies on PKD and pregnancy and IVF. So really we were kind of playing it out as it could be one, it could be the other. She was in the ICU for about a week, and we got out of the ICU, and we started going back to our follow-up appointments. And at about 24 and a half weeks, we went in again. And the doctor said, listen, your son is not progressing as we like. He's tracking on size, but still pretty far behind, and we may need to think about abortion and aborting the egg and aborting the baby. For everything that we went through, it was the hardest thing to hear. And my wife really just went into a complete panic, the anxiety, the nervousness, all of that, and really result in her having to be admitted to the hospital as a result of that. And we went into the hospital, Hartford Hospital here, and we continued to monitor her. Her blood pressure was still very high, but to be honest, you would know it. I walked in, and she seemed perfectly normal. Again, this could be part of her disease in which high blood pressure doesn't show as much for her as it would for somebody who had that same elevated blood pressure. So what I was seeing and panicking on, the doctors really thought was normal, considering all things of what was going on at 25 weeks. And one day, my wife I walked in and my wife said, you know what? We're going to have a baby today. And I had absolutely no clue what to expect. I did not know if he would survive at 25 weeks, and I had no clue what he would look like for me. I read all the books, and your third trimester is typically when a lot of the lungs and everything are developing even more. The size, the weight. There's a lot of stuff that still has to happen in those three months that you're early for the baby to be healthy for mom and all of that. So I just assumed that I'd be seeing, like, a skeleton or a kid that's half-formed. I had absolutely no idea what I was going to run into, or what we were going to see. And so my wife went in. We had our son through C-section, and I remember we're behind the curtain, and they're just taking them out, and I don't hear any cries. So as a parent, as a person, you're trained to really think about and hear the cries. In every movie or TV show, all of a sudden the baby comes out. There's the dramatic pause, and then there's the baby crying. Everyone's happy. The doctors and nurses are bringing the baby over. Mommy is bonding, dad's smiling. None of that. We didn't have any of it. And so he couldn't cry. He didn't have the lung capacity, being that small. And our nurse had said, he's got a little button nose. He looks so cute. So I was like, okay, great. He's got a little cute nose, and he's alive, so I'll take that as a win. And he was rushed right next door. We didn't get a chance to see him. And then as they're kind of getting my wife sewn up and taken care of and checking all the things that they got to do, they said to me, do you want to see your son? And for part of me, as I alluded to the other night, I was talking with another dad. I wasn't sure if I wanted to do that. I didn't know what to expect. And I just didn't want to rob my wife of yet another first. She had gone through iteration after iteration and the injections of IVF. She had gone back and forth, driving 2 hours each way to the clinic to get checked out at the fertility clinic. She had done everything humanly possible. Didn't get a baby shower, and didn't even get the chance to decorate. And I just didn't want to rob her of that. God forbid he doesn't make it. I mean, I don't know the prognosis for something like this. I'm a new parent, never had any kids. I didn't know anything about premise or prematurity or any of that. We hadn't had any of that in my family up to this point. So I really had nothing to compare it to. I had nobody to turn to and say, our son's born today. What's it going to be like? And is he going to survive? And I finally decided to go in and I just saw this team of doctors and nurses around him and hand pumping his breaths one at a time. There's like a person just dedicated who went through school and training and probably countless hours of studying just to hand pump one breath at a time, my son, so he could breathe and they can get him to where they need to do it. And it was just overwhelming. But it was like a miracle to see that and to see him in there. And he had all the wraps and different things on, so you really don't get a chance to see too much of it, sure. But it definitely was an emotional day of everything. It was highs and lows. It was being scared, the most scared I was ever in my life, and being the most happy I was in my life too. At the same time, it was just so many ups and downs. And then trying to worry about my wife, making sure she was okay with her condition, with her history, and then trying to battle the back and forth of being in the NICU, seeing everything, keeping her updated on what's going on. But I was very thankful for the staff and the nurses, especially that day when everything was kind of moving all over the place and fastly paced. They took the time to kind of show me the NICU, and I had a very experienced nurse who'd been in the NICU for a very long time. She was in charge of everybody, and she showed me everything, and she went through and she said, this was a 25-week or born yesterday over here, and here's where he'll be at. I picked out a nice spot for him, and we've got this, and we've got that. And it's overwhelming, but at the same time, like, the calmness that she had, and you're expecting nurses and doctors running back and forth and constantly with these small babies, and it was not that. It was cool, calm, collected, and measured. They're doing what they need to do. They're monitoring. And I felt good about that because I just felt like the environment was a little bit more soothing at that moment, and I felt a little bit more comfortable because it seemed to be like these weren't just kids that were 5 lbs., they're a little bit light. These were very small kids, and clearly, we had the technology to help them get to where they needed to be. I had nothing else other than to assume that. But the nurses were great. I mean, they gave me as much information as I could take in, and then I had to do the hardest thing. I had to go back and basically kind of sugarcoat things and kind of lie to my wife to a degree because I had to practice everything. I had to keep my emotions in check. I had to not cry in front of her because I didn't want her to be upset. And she was going through a million emotions that I could never possibly understand and then tell her, hey, he looks great, he's doing good. They have a great team of doctors and try to get her to a good spot. And what she's probably dealing with internally, I have no clue what's going on in her head. I'm just trying to be as positive as I can be. I'm trying to keep my facial expressions in check and make sure that I'm not giving anything. It's almost like you have a poker face on, and you just have to make it feel like fake it till you make it. And that's kind of what I did for the first day or so.
[14:38] Michelle: Yeah. Wow, that is an incredible story. And there's so much to that that from the NICU nurse side that was like my life every day, just seeing, usually, we would see the father's first because mom is, like you said, getting stitched up and is usually pretty sick. And so the dads come up with the babies, and they usually have kind of a 'deer in the headlight' look. And I think that's one of our superpowers, is really helping the dads initially feel comfortable, feel confident, kind of just really helping bring all that anxiety and that worry down and answer some of the questions. Because there's so many questions and a lot of misconceptions that you kind of saw. Like you thought it was going to be really chaotic, and then you found that it was actually pretty calm. Did you guys have a NICU that was single-family rooms?
[16:02] Adam: No, we didn't have single-family rooms. We had very open space, so we had one wing in another. It was a Level IV. So it was basically connected. It was a Hartford hospital, and we had Connecticut Children's, which was basically right next door, and they had a bridge that went between them. And then they had an underground transport that they had. But basically, Connecticut Children had a wing just below the maternity ward, so that if they had pregnancies that were NICU needed for whatever reason, they would move them there and keep them there. And really the PICU was on the other hospital that was next door. So once you got to that point where you could move next door to the PICU it was kind of night and day, but it was weird because you were in Hartford Hospital, but it was really like Connecticut Children. It was like their own special world of that. But no, we had a nice little area. They gave us room. I think they had areas, I think picked out for kids that were probably the most premature. So 25, 24, and they try to keep it isolated and quieter because I guess they knew all the effects of monitors and traffic and things like that. And people walking through all those things can impact. So I think we were in a pretty good spot where we had privacy. We had the ability to be there, but not a lot of people looking in. But, yeah, you still had families that were right across from you and dealing with the same things you were dealing with.
[17:39] Michelle: All but the last two years of my career, I was in an open bay NICU. And it sounds exactly like the same kind of setup. We had two rooms that were kind of in the back and they had a sliding glass door so we could shut that because you're absolutely right, the developmental effects of the NICU can be really devastating in terms of the development of the premature and sick infant. All the lights, all the people, all the sound, all the alarms. And when you have an open bay NICU like that, every baby is hearing all of that, all day long. So we had an area where we could put our extremely premature infants, our really sick infants, and kind of mitigate some of those things that we knew were bad for them. So one of my questions was usually the dad sees the baby before the mom. And what was that experience like for you? And you really gave a good description of that. I want to pivot and I want to talk about Jenn for a minute. What was in those following days while she was still hospitalized, and you were going back and forth to NICU, talk about kind of what she was going through, her feelings, the challenges that she was experiencing.
[19:11] Adam: Well, I think she was having a lot of challenges with being able to connect for those first few days. And I can't even actually remember the first time we got a chance to hold him. Sometimes I think back, and I feel like it was days later, and then sometimes I feel like it was weeks later. But I think for her, it was very overwhelming for me. I got a chance to see it at first, and then I had to process it and think about it and then compartmentalize it. And then she got to come down and see him, and she's already dealing with the emotional and the physical side of childbirth and what she went through. And I think at first she was just in shock, too. Even with him being a day or two in the NICU and getting the updates from me and the nurses, I think it was very hard for her to communicate what she was feeling. I think it was just a lot of shock and uncertainty of what was to happen. And for her, I think it was hard to bond. And there's that feeling of, do I commit my heart and soul to this little one and give everything I have and get them through this, or do I detach myself, let the doctors do what they need to do, and kind of see what happens, and then start to feel a little more comfortable over time with connecting. And I think some parents feel that if you disconnect, it's a lot easier with dealing with the pain if your child is lost. And there's others that say it's worse if you connect with them and you put your heart in, and it hurts even more, because now you put all that love and care and hope and prayers into, and it hurts even more. So I think there's just different ideas of thinking, and I don't think either one is wrong. I think we are thrown into a very irrational situation where you can say anything you want right now, but until you actually are thrown into that situation of life and death and seeing your child in these situations, I don't think anybody can make the judgment and feeling of what they would or wouldn't do. And I think that's something that people often do is they say, well, if I was in that situation, I would move hell and earth, and I would do this and do that. And it doesn't work that way. It really doesn't.
[21:45] Michelle: Yeah.
[21:47] Adam: There's no ability for me to turn to my nurse and say, okay, Nurse Ellen, go ahead and hook me up to all the stuff and let Brady just chill for the day. And I'll take all the poking and prodding and the medication and the pain he's probably going through and dealing with and take it away from him. It doesn't work that way. In a perfect world, it would, but it just doesn't. But I think when she got a chance to really hold him, she felt like a mom at that point, and I think for her, she probably felt like a failure. She felt like I did something wrong or why did this happen to me? And I think a lot of moms I've talked to, say the same thing. They blame themselves, even though everybody in the world, their friends, their family, the nurses, and the doctors will tell them, you did nothing wrong, you did everything right, you're a good person. It just happens. And unfortunately, that just is the case with prematurity. There's a lot of people that are more high risk because of the things that they do, and certainly, you can turn and say, yeah, I shouldn't have done that, or I shouldn't have done this. But I think overwhelmingly, the amount of everyday people from every walk of life looks at it and says, why us? I did everything right, and then look at a person who doesn't even maybe want kids, and the perfect birth happens to them, no issues, no anything, and they're complaining about it. And I think that's also hard from a parent's perspective to see those kinds of people around. You get really bitter. You try not to be, but at the end of the day, you do. You look around, you say, like, god, I'm a much better person than that person over there, and everything's okay with them, and they don't even want that kid. And I went through hell on earth. I prayed and did everything. I went into debt to bring life into this world because it is so sacred, and this is the situation I'm in.
[23:39] Michelle: Yeah.
[23:39] Adam: And I think over time, she got more and more connected. And I think the bonding experience of reading and talking to him and changing him and being able to be involved in the care was critical to her changing her perspective and feelings. But in those initial first days, only she can tell you everything. And I don't think after four years, I don't think she's fully ever told me and shared with me all of that. I think that there are times we'll share things with each other, we'll relive some moments, we'll look back, but I don't think she's ever fully come to terms with her feelings on it, her emotions, whether they're irrational or irrational. I know she's talked with people and people that have had preemies as well, but she's just not one of those people that I think she more rather suppress it, put it in the past, and move forward than dwell on it or use it for something else. And I think that's okay too. Some people just process things differently, and they want to move forward and try to live a happy life and be thankful for what they do have.
[24:52] Michelle: Yes. You really hit the nail on the head when you were talking about Jenn actually having hands on. And we see that so much and there's so much literature to just back that up. So the skin-to-skin is so important for really helping all those feelings of being disconnected, the guilt, the fear, the worry that you're going to lose your child. That's why we really advocate for and push skin-to-skin as early as possible. And then the other thing is really exactly what you said, hands-on. When we get the parents involved in the care and they can change their child's diaper, that little tiny diaper when they're 25 weeks and they can hold the baby, even if the baby is getting a gavage feeding, put that baby skin to skin. There's so many benefits of hands-on care, and it just helps you see the strengths of the child because initially, when you're so filled with fear, that part of your brain takes over and you're just hijacked by all of those feelings of guilt and loss and being disconnected. So hands-on is crucial. It's crucial for you, for Jenn,  for Brady. It just really makes you all feel like a family hopeful, and it helps you to see the strengths. So I've heard you on a few Instagram Lives now, and I always love watching them. And one of the things you've always talked about on there is Jenn's kind of, story of pumping her breast milk and how you were so amazed that anything came at all. So talk about that for a moment.
[27:11] Adam: Yeah, I'm sure it's not her most flattering story that she likes me to share, but I think it's important to be it is honest and funny about it. It was amazing to me that at that point, you start to grow when you started to get all that stuff, and women start to develop. But it was amazing for her because she already kind of had the magnesium drip, she had the drugs in her body and it was, okay, Mr. Wood, let's get her pumping. And I'm thinking, I think your priorities are just way out of whack right now. We just gave birth and it's emotional and we're not sure what's going to happen. And you're talking about getting milk out. While I appreciate your optimism, I just kind of feel like that might not be the case at this time. But I was able to help her because she was obviously, with the C-section, not able to move, mobility becomes an issue, all of that. It's not just like she's like, all right, I'm ready to go. And to be honest, we hadn't even gone through the classes yet at this point, so I'm not even sure if she knows how to work a pump. I definitely don't know how to work up a breast pump. So I don't even know because I kind of looked at her and was like, well, do you know what you're doing? Because I don't know what I'm doing. I know certain things. But they don't teach that in sex ed about how to use a breast pump if your partner needs one. They don't teach that to me. So I kind of helped her get into it and it just kind of did what it needed to do and I helped her get into that and that was a very bonding experience for us. Not one that I wish to have, but we worked as a team to get through that and it was good for her, I think, as well, because she felt I'm contributing, I'm contributing as a mom in my own small way and I can get milk to my baby. And I was amazed when they would get the milk. And I mean, not a ton came out at first, but enough and enough to be, hey, this is impressive, you're 15 weeks early. Your breast has even got to the point where they really swell up and they talk about all that stuff and you're already ready to go an hour and a half after you gave birth and prematurely. So it was to me, really amazing to kind of just see the human body being able to kick in immediately and say you're a mom, whether you were done traditionally, non traditionally the baby's out of the body. And I didn't know about all the things that happened with triggers this and the plus any of that stuff. I'm a guy and I'm sure my wife probably didn't even realize what that all meant. But it was able to contribute and I think we were able to start that process and be able to give milk. And it got to the point where we ended up having deep freezers of milk. We had to get two or three deep freezers because he didn't take a lot, and he didn't have a great suck. So orally we weren't moving in a great direction there and that's why we ended up on a G-tube. But she was able to give a little bit. And just to me, every time I see these little syringes now, those orange ones that you have for medicine or anything, I always think back to the breast milk because they would take that out and they would give it to them a little bit in their mouth or they would put the syringes in there. And it always amazed me just how they were able to get that milk into him and how good it was for him. And learning about things I never thought I learned about. I forget about it now. But you're supposed to pump a little and then there's like a certain type of milk that is better and more high protein. I'm trying to remember what they used to call they told me what it was.
[30:54] Michelle: Was it the foremilk?
[30:56] Adam: That's right. So we actually would mark on our thing to date if it was foremilk or not. So we would put that in. And it's all those little things you start to learn as a parent that you just never expected to have to learn about. But it was crucial. And I think for a lot of women, that's hard for them because not every woman is able to create milk. And it becomes very stressful, and they're in a stressful environment. And whether that adds to it at all I'm sure it does. And I think the lactation specialists probably come around, and they're trying to comfort them. Again, a woman seems to be tied into so many things that sometimes are out of her control, and the same thing with a dad, but especially a mom. You can't help that your baby is premature. More than likely, you can't help if your body suddenly isn't producing milk as it's supposed to be or shuts down because you have some sort of infection. And I think we tend to blame ourselves. And again, there's a lot of blame that happens in the NICU, and often it doesn't go in the right direction it needs to go. The blame should really be going to other places or just completely an afterthought and be focused more on, what can I do to get my baby and myself and my family through this next hour, day, whatever. And we spend so much time thinking about the woulda, coulda, and shoulda, that it really interferes with our ability to embrace the nows and the miracle of the moment.
[32:34] Michelle: Boy, that was really well said. There is no place for blame in the NICU, and I absolutely agree with that. As a nurse and a lactation specialist, I would talk to moms every day. And I actually had a magic wand at my desk. And there were some of those moms that were just so riddled with guilt and blame and blaming themselves. And sometimes I would have to pull out that magic wand and say, if I had the power to take away the guilt and the blame that you feel like, I would do that in an instant because guilt is such a nonproductive emotion. It's like we can't do anything with it. It's pretty useless. And just like you said, focusing on the here and now, this is what we're dealing with. Let's do it the best we can. Let's go forward. Those are all great strategies for kind of mitigating some of that, but you can't just tell somebody, don't feel guilty. And so I wouldn't go that route, I think letting people talk about it and again, letting people figure things out, but removing that blame, this was not your fault. There was nothing that you did. This was out of your control. And, man, as a control freak myself, that is hard to believe when somebody tells you, this was not in your control. And I'm going but I want it to be. You can't will it.
[34:40] Adam: Exactly.
[34:41] Michelle: Yeah. Wow. Jenn sounds like an amazing person. And again, I love hearing the stories. For me, on the other side, being a NICU nurse, of course, we're not in your life, we're not in your head, and so we don't always know what you're thinking and feeling. We kind of have an idea, but for you to verbalize it so expertly is so helpful, and I think it's going to be so helpful to really all NICU professionals and really all help medical professionals. The stories that you guys tell are so important to us. And I told you this before when we talked about a conference that I went to in Las Vegas when I first became a developmental specialist. And there were people there from all around the world, experts, and neuroscientists. And the best thing that I got out of that group was they had a parent group, NICU parents. And first of all, to see the bravery to get up in front of rooms of hundreds of people, I thought, wow, that's really amazing. But then they talked about things that the NICU staff did or said that things that were helpful and things that were hurtful. And I had never heard that before. I had never gotten any feedback as a nurse or as a unit collectively. So to hear that from their perspective, was just an awakening. And I took that back to my NICU group and I shared that with them. And I think we just all kind of looked at things a little differently after that. But it's so important to do what you're doing and to keep telling your story. So I really appreciate that.
[36:55] Adam: Well, thank you.
[36:56] Michelle: Yeah. One of the things that I found out about you because it's in all your bios, is that you are an Army veteran. I'm going to say thank you for your service, and I never think that that's enough. I will say that I appreciate my freedom, so thank you for that. But the military, I don't have to tell you this, it's all about preparedness. A lot of the training is preparedness, training for what to do if this happens, what to do if that happens. But you got none of that for the NICU experience. So just talk about a little bit about those similarities, I guess if they are at all similar, your military experience and your experience in the NICU.
[37:49] Adam: Well, I think there's a lot of similarities, actually. And I think that the military definitely prepares you for being able to compartmentalize your emotions, your feelings, your physical pain, and emotional pain, to do what you need to do. And in that moment, in that mission, whatever that needs to be, you put everything else aside, you put your own well-being aside for the good of that. And in the NICU, there's that same environment. Your partner, your wife, your husband, whoever that might be, they're your platoon, they're your squad. You would do anything for them. They would do anything for you. You have each other's back. You work as a tandem unit together for a common good. And the nurses, the doctors, the respiratory staff, the guys that park your cars out front when you show up to the NICU and you're stressed out, they're all part of a larger unit of people that are dedicated. And like in the military, we have doctors and nurses. We have people that are on the front lines with us when we're out in combat and we have medics that are there. The nurses are on the front lines with us a lot of times. They are those medics. They are the ones that are keeping us calm. They are the ones taking care of us day-to-day, whether it's physically when we have an injury, or emotionally a lot of times. And they provide that support system. And I think everybody that's in there has a mission to do. The respiratory staff comes in there, they give their medicine, they give their treatments, they talk with the parents who are kind of the troops on the ground with their little one and they let us know what they're doing and they follow up. And that's very much in the military. In the same way, you also have a chain of command. And I think the funny thing about it is that the running joke with anyone who's in the military. They'll say there are officers and there's enlisted. And having been enlisted for 20 years of my life, it's definitely very different from officers. Doctors a lot of times are like those officers, they're important, and they're a big piece of that. But at the end of the day, everybody knows who the real people follow when it comes to battle or on the day-to-day and who really leads and who helps. And I think a lot of that is the nurses. They enlisted, those that come in that have a more humanistic take, they are leading by example. They are working with you, going the extra mile because they know what it means, where doctors have to look at things from more of a clinical perspective and a higher look at everything in the entire NICU and focus on these areas that the nurses are really there one on one and helping throughout that. So it would definitely help me quite a bit with that and adapting to things. It also was completely different because I had been in combat, I had been in Afghanistan and Iraq. I had been in some really bad situations in my time. And the times in the NICU and uncertain days in the NICU were worse than that by 1000 fold. I would rather have done 100 combat tours than have to relive some of that time or some of those days over and over again. And a lot of times it was the nurses and the staff there that got me through it. They would physically actually hold me up when I would break down. And I'm kind of a big guy, so it might take two or three nurses to kind of hold me up and stroke my pride and my ego and all of that and help me get through that day in that moment. And they were very personable, and that's what I always loved about a lot of the nurses and the staff. They kind of knew how to read you. And that's a trait that I think in health care, being able to read people and the social intellect and the emotional intellect on how to act around certain people is something that you can't teach. You either haven't or don't. Some people are really great, and they'll tell a dirty joke to a parent as an example on the side, and it makes them chuckle. And the other person that they might walk up to, they won't say anything. They'll just go in and do their job. And they know that person. That's not what they need. And I think sometimes I joke around with doctors and other people that I know. Sometimes they lack the ability to have that emotional intellect, to be able to talk with people. And they look at it from a very clinical perspective. They look at it and I get it. They have to detach quite a bit and they have to try to focus on a lot of things. But I think that's where a lot of the other individuals that run the day to day of hospitals and NICUs, they just get it. They know that sometimes it just takes a funny story or taking you down and picking you up a coffee from the cafeteria on their way back from break. They can just read people in a way that not a lot of people can do. And I think that's a skill set that just goes unnoticed by a lot of people. But I definitely noticed that. And I know that it's an important thing for them to be able to do their job effectively to be able to find out I know what I need to do for a baby. I'm skillful in my job, I'm experienced. But in the back of my mind, how do I help that mom or dad? Maybe I do a little extra for them. Maybe I do like a footprint or I leave behind something for them because they've been having a rough time or whatever it might be. I think that those are all the things that we appreciate as well as parents. And I'm getting a little off-topic, but I can't communicate that enough. It's the little things that have gotten us through the NICU more than most people realize. And I think that just being a good human being and being compassionate goes a long way in helping us get home and our babies get home.
[44:07] Michelle: Well, I do think that is one of our superpowers, and I thank you for recognizing that. And I think that's probably one of the things that I missed most after I retired, about just being part of that group. And one of the things I loved, and I told you this before, is rounding. And you have so many great memes on rounds, but I think that that is one of the things that we're really good at, and we appreciate that about ourselves. And just hearing you talk about it and recognizing it just really fills me up with a lot of joy and pride. So thank you so much for that. You mentioned in the military the chain of command, and that's one of the things I wanted to talk about. And of course, every hospital, every unit, including the NICU, has a chain of command. Did you and Jenn ever need to use the chain of command? Maybe you'd had an experience with a nurse or a physician or just something that you were not happy about. Did you ever have an experience like that?
[45:22] Adam: Yeah, we definitely did. As my wife will often tell you, I'm typically a very Alpha personality in just who I am. And when it was in the NICU, it fully came out, and I think it allowed my wife to focus on her son Brady, and just being a mom and connecting and doing all those great things that are going to be helpful for him. And I got to use what I do best and be able to get information to compartmentalize, read it, take all the things that I'm strong in, and use that to my benefit and to our benefit. So, yeah, with rounds, it was me talking to the doctors. My wife would be there, but what about this? What about that? Yesterday, his thing went down. Why are we doing this? Why are we doing that? And there were times where the care wasn't quite there, or a doctor or nurse would say, well, we know your child. And I would say, no, you don't, because you just rotated on, and this is the first time I've seen you since being here for the last 60 days. So you don't know my child. You have 40 other beds. You have all these other kids, and I understand that, but you don't know this kid. I read his stats. I can recite his stats back and forth. I could tell you everything about him that you cannot. Look at that chart right now and tell me a third of it. I said the same thing that they had. We had a per diem nurse that would come in and fill in because you always have the staffing. And she made the mistake one day of saying, I know your child. And I said, I don't know who the F you think you are, but you definitely don't know my child. And there were nurses there that we trusted. Basically, whenever they would have a rough day, he would have a rough day. And our nurses, Ellen and Amy, if they were on, they would just look at me and they would give up their duties, whether they were charged nurse and be there as a primary nurse that day. Those are the things that they understood how invested we were. I mean, we were there every day from sun up to way plus sundown with our son. And so they knew that I needed them to be there because I trusted them. We had built that trust. And I would just look at them and say, please, and they would switch things around to do that. And I know it's hard and it probably caused a lot of issues, but I never saw them once complain about that. They just did it. But there were times I would go to the nurse charge or somebody that was in charge of the department and talk to them about it and go in a room, and I just said, I'm passionate about my son. I said, we've gone through a lot, and I know you see that every time, but this is what I feel. And there was a time when they wanted to do his surgery to fix his G-tube or to put in his G-tube and fix his hernias, and they were like, oh, we're going to do it tomorrow. And I said I don't think so. And they said, what do you mean? I was like, I've been watching him. He's desatting. His sats have been going up and down for the last two or three days. And I said I don't feel he's ready for it. And they're like, well, I think we think he's ready. They went back in and we argued back and forth a little bit and then basically the head nurse and one of the head doctors came back and said, you know what, we looked at the data. We looked at the information, and he has been and you're right, I think we should push it back for at least another couple of days. And they were able to push it back. And then when he did have the surgery, everything went great. But I think a lot of parents don't have the wherewithal or the comfort level to be able to stand up and advocate. And I think a lot of people just say, well, they're the subject matter experts. I'm going to let them be and hope everything turns out. There's nothing wrong with challenging them and getting a second opinion or getting a different thought process or talking with the people that you know that see this child every day. Because nurses, typically you have the same three, four, or five nurses if you're thankful enough in a hospital where they are pretty much on duty with him all the time. So you get to know them pretty well. And if they're giving you the vibe like you know what? It's not the time or they have a different opinion. I'm far more apt to believe their opinion whether I go with it or not. But I do believe it because I know that they are there every single day. They're seeing the one on ones a lot more than any doctor or any chart can see. They know how many times they've had to do something or change something or he hasn't been really breathing correctly or they have to adjust them a lot more on one side or the other. So there are those things you get to just realize that when you trust your staff and the nurses you're able to really fully advocate for your child correctly. But the same thing like when we went to the PICU I hated the PICU. I thought it was the worst environment ever. And I actually joined the hospital board and the Family Advisory Council because I wanted to change things. Not in the NICU, but in the PICU because I was so appalled by the level of care and the lack of compassion by some of the doctors that were there and the lack of staffing for some of these kids that I really wanted to make some changes in certain things there. And I did get involved and I was on there for about two years, the only dad. But I wanted to make sure that that situation did not happen to another parent ever again.
[51:07] Michelle: Well, that's one of the things I just love about you is your advocacy from the very beginning. And contrary to what a lot of parents think, we actually really appreciate parents that raise issues that bring these things to light. We know our own inadequacies, but sometimes we put blinders on and when we have a parent in our face showing us those inadequacies, it really hits home and it really motivates us even more to do things to fix those inadequacies. And just you serving on your Advisory council like that's so powerful. You can't deny someone that has lived that experience like you and Jenn lived that experience. And you just have so much to bring and just your advocacy, doing everything that you're doing, your books, which we'll get to in a minute, and your Instagram. But again, I just want to say that we do really appreciate the people who speak up and who kind of get pissed about things sometimes we wish we could do that too, and sometimes we do, but we're a little bit more reticent, unfortunately. And so you guys are our teachers in a way to help us to do that. So thank you for that. One of the memes I was looking at last night on your Instagram, just like I told you the other day, I just go down the rabbit hole when I'm on your Instagram because it's so funny and it's so relatable. But one of the ones that I wanted to talk about today was there's a little guy on stage with a microphone, and he says, "I would like to say thanks to the person that taught me how to get through the NICU." The next slide is a doctor standing up, and then the guy says, "Sit the fuck down. I ain't talking about you."  And then the nurses stand up, and that just had me laughing so much. But, of course, doctors are special people, and I know that you have a strong bond with your co-author, Dr. Prem Fort, thenicudoc. But tell me a little bit about that, how you came to be an author, and what the experience was like writing with Dr. Fort.
[53:56] Adam: Yeah, well, as we got out of the NICU, we basically kind of slow rolled a little bit into COVID. So it got to a point where we were home, we were secluded, we were already isolating before it was cool in 2018 and 2019, right before the pandemic had started. And I wanted to kind of find a way to give back. I had since retired recently, actually, that same year. I had just retired from the military. And I found myself at a point where I didn't have anything to be passionate about. And I'm the kind of person that I like to be passionate about, my work or my job or something in my life. And I've done that for so long, and it became such a part of my identity and who I am, and my values and ethics. And now that was gone. So now I sat there and I said, what am I going to do next? What's the next thing in my life that I can impact and give back to or do something that I'm going to be happy about and make me feel good? And I thought you know what? Maybe I'll write a book someday or write about the NICU. And I realized that while we're reading in the NICU, you do a lot of Google searches. You check everything out. You're looking everything up. I read a lot of books. Like, I read everything to my son. I read I'm a big history fan. I read about the War of 1812 to my son, literally for a couple of days. He learned about American history. He learned about everything that I could get my hands on. And I didn't see a lot of books about the NICU. I saw stuff that was relatable stuff. As a parent, you get emotional about and you cry, and it's great, but nothing from that perspective. And then I said, humor also got me through the NICU. It's a big part of a lot of the military and a lot of nurses, especially those I've talked with. You work in a very stressful environment. You deal with human life and human loss and policemen and firefighters and first responders. I mean, these are people all that are in jobs where you have to be professional. You have to be the highest level of ethics, but you need to be able to laugh and look at things a little differently. And sometimes it gets pretty dark. And that actually got me through the NICU. I would have respiratory staff that would come in this guy Cliff, and he and I would trade jabs back and forth at each other, and my wife would be like, what are you doing? And I would make fun of his teeth, like, oh, did you go to the dentist on the way here? That's why you're late. And he wouldn't be like and he would make fun of me, and it would go back and forth, but that's how guys cope. So I said, like, real full-on bromance. We had a bromance. I'm not going to lie. We had a bromance. Whether it was legal in the NICU, I don't know, but we had one. So I said, why don't I take some of the stuff I'm doing and try to bring some humor to it? So I actually started the Instagram account and started just creating. I'm not a person that created memes ever before this. I don't even know how to create one. I had to look it up. And then a couple of people said, I really like this. This is funny. And I started getting a pretty good following of people that really appreciated the real, true nature from a parent's perspective, both how they see the NICU, the dark humor of the NICU, the things that most parents don't understand that we laugh at or have to do in the NICU. Out of that, I started kind of writing these ideas down and said, I want to do a book, but I want to do a book from a dad's perspective so that a mom or dad can read and say, there's hope. There's a dad here that had a 25-weeker and he got out. And if maybe I can get out too. Maybe it's not insurmountable, especially in those first few weeks when you don't have a clue and you're so scared. But then I said, it needs to have humor. It needs to have something so that it doesn't feel like I'm going to cry every time I read the book. You need to cheer up and laugh a little and feel like you're bonded. And so I just started writing these different milestones. And then I said, well, how do I make the milestones funny? So I started looking at it from my perspective. How did I see the NICU and the Kangaroo Care? Why the hell do you call it Kangaroo Care? I literally thought that it was about kangaroos coming, and I thought they had a program where it was like dogs, but they bring kangaroos in and it doesn't make sense. You're like, well, you don't even put a kid in your pouch. I thought they had like, a pouch that you put them in, and that's why no one can really tell me why. And I remember thinking that and that's part of the book, like me thinking it was about a kangaroo I'm holding, or the G-tube why we got it, or the first time you change a diaper and it's like huge and you're expecting all these little things. I needed it to be like a way to celebrate things but smile and laugh at them in a way that's not scary so that if you're reading the book at different stages in your journey, you're going to get something different out of it. And I think for the initial stage, it's really for the parent, it's kind of like Bluey, the cartoon. I just started getting into it. A lot of the humor is more for the parent, but it's written in a way so that a child who reads it at different stages when they're older, will look at it and say, oh, this is so funny and cute looking, and not look at it from the perspective of the parents going to perceive it as. And so I wrote the book and it was really well received. I was able to continue to do daily stuff with social media because the book is great, but you still need daily stuff, you still need interaction. And I wanted everyone to feel like we're kind of on this adventure together. And so after I wrote the book and got it published and went through the whole process of learning how to publish a book, which was the whole thing in itself, Dr. Prem Fort, found me on social media and he actually got the book and was like, I love this book. What are your thoughts about doing more? And I said, well, he's off. I just spent a lot of money self-publishing this book and putting my heart and soul into it. But I hadn't thought about multiple, I just thought one, and that would help the family and they'd be able to get it and read to their kid while they're there and so on and so forth. And it would be a celebration for them and something that's personal to them and not just an everyday book, it's a book written for them, by them. And so we decided the idea of like, well, why don't we take what you love and what I love and mash them up? And he loves to educate. He loves to talk about the medical side. He does a lot of educational videos on YouTube and social media on Instagram and Twitter and all that. And he does it to help parents and nurses and respiratory, and he tries to break that down. And I said, well, you got your perspective and I got mine, and I'm going to have it from a humorous side. How does the mom and dad see the NICU and the things you're talking about? And we found that what he thought and I thought were completely different things and he learned quite a bit. And so the oscillator as an example, the first time you see this big thing come out, it's like 1925. You look at it, you're like, this is old, and you're going to save my kid's life on this thing. Meanwhile, the rest of the NICU is like touch screen and this and that, and you bring out this and it's falling apart. And he looked at it and said, oh, this is what it does. And this is from a very clinical and I said, no, how I see it is like, oh my God, give me something better. How you see it is a great thing. So we mirrored it up. So every step of the way, when it comes to the respiratory side, all the devices, the blood gases, and all the things that families go through, typically in A NICU Journey, are highlighted in here. It still celebrates milestones, but it allows them to see, okay, this is the device my kid is going to have. What's CPAP? Oh, okay. These are things that's going to help their lungs. What does the blood gas do? This is what it helps them do. But on the pages, themselves and the other text is how I as a parent hear these things and perceives these things for the very first time. Not after I've been in the NICU for six months as the first time I'm being introduced to that. And we wanted to also keep it not just one singular journey like we did with our book, where I kind of had our family and we had our nurses in there. It is very personal, but it still carried the message to other families that went through it. This one, we had all kinds of families from all over and every background, nurses and doctors. And we just went through the whole gamut of how do we want to educate, because a lot of families, we also know that they get into the NICU, they get overwhelmed, they are scared to ask questions. They maybe don't get a chance to be there for rounds. So the book will allow them to take a very technical process and have both a layman's terms perspective from the doctor that they can then use to talk about during rounds and feel a little bit more like they're educated and more involved in it. And they can also look at it from my perspective and the parent and say, yes, this is exactly what I felt like when we had a brady episode on day four, getting ready to go home and how we're so upset and those are all the real things. And there are things in here that he didn't want to add like he didn't want to have the brady episode where we had it happen and we couldn't go home and part of the story and we had to stay there longer. And I said you have to be very real and truthful. I said, you can't sugarcoat everything, but we made it so that it was okay. And it was a message of like when they're ready, they're ready. And that you're going to have the ups and downs and setting that expectation of the parent and saying you're going to have these highs and lows. You're going to have these things happen that are amazing and there's going to be days where it's going to be frustrating, but you'll get there. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and that is the NICU. For some people, it is going to be a long 25 miles marathon. For others, it might be a ten-mile marathon. But at the end of the day, we're going to go through a lot of the same things together. And so we put out Our Respiratory Aventure in the NICU story, and then to add fuel to the fire, we decided to add a Christmas book to it. So that was completely different. And that was not done from a clinical perspective. It was more done from just sharing a fun and heartwarming journey as something that a child at home that has siblings there or a parent who maybe doesn't have other kids could appreciate. Because there are so many families all over the world that are in the NICU for one, two, 3, 4, 10, 15 holidays, and it can be very alone. And the doctors are there with them, and the nurses are there with them. They're celebrating. But I think that one was one of the most fun ones for me to write because I changed the style of how I wrote from the first book and the second book, and it was a very different one from the third book. It was not so much of a rhyme, it was more of a story from start to finish. And I kept a lot of humor into it, too. One of my favorite parts was when the little girl Emily is asking about Santa's reindeer and she says, why is Dasher so small and he's leading your sleigh? And one of the things that I wrote about that was that Santa said he's premature too, but like all God's children, the smallest are often the most determined. And I joked about it and said, don't let his size fool you. He eats like ten reindeer. And I also made it funny and humorous, but a lot of messages of don't underestimate a child or a baby a sick. Because the amount of determination and the amount of miracles that you and I have gotten to see and especially you over the years is amazing. And there needs to be more hope and a bonding experience of that. So that's been received pretty well in the last couple of months of just releasing it. And our goal is to create a whole series of these books that will be available for parents at different stages in their journey, will be something that they can show their kids or they can read themselves and look at and look back at the NICU and say, you know what? It wasn't just all bad stuff. I remember how the nurses used to look at our kids and they still fall in love with them and all of that. These are all things I added that I thought were very personable and also messages for the staff as well, and doctors and nurses. I know a lot of people don't tell you this, but here's how we feel, and we appreciate what you do and how you help so many people out there. So it's been great to do and to do all of it. And right now I've got three more I'm currently working on. So we'll see how it goes. But to be able to help parents and to take a mom or dad right now who maybe gets the book or reads the book and gets them through that journey that I didn't have, I think that's the really thing that I love about it. And to hear some of the stories and people that have gotten through the NICU since these books have come out warms my heart. All the hard work is worth it. To be able to go into that and say a parent feels just a little bit better, not cure it, but feels a little bit better and feels seen. Because I think the NICU is the loneliest place in the world. Even though there are literally doctors and nurses and people everywhere, you feel very secluded and you feel very alone, and you're just left there with your thoughts. And to be able to put that on paper and say, I hear your thoughts, I thought them too. I understand your frustration. I thought that too. And I think it allows people to be able to say, okay, it's not just me. I'm not crazy. I'm not wrong for joking about this, because I thought the same thing too. And I just want people to be more bonded by the experience and come together and feel comfortable with sharing their stories and be vulnerable. And hopefully, that leads to other things that will help prematurely, help get more funding for NICUs, for staffing, for NICUs as well. It breaks my heart to see the shortage of doctors and nurses, especially in the industry right now. And I think from my selfish perspective, what if this happened right a couple of years ago when my son was there? Would that affect him not being able to get the treatment that he needed to be here? So I don't want a family to go through that. So the advocacy part stretches far beyond just prematurity in the NICU. It's making sure the nurses are taken care of and they can do it to be their best and the doctors can be their best, all of that. Because we need to really support these hospitals and especially these areas that take care of children because they are the most important pieces of the puzzle and they give us hope. And if we don't take care of the healthcare industry, there's going to be a lot of people going to be losing hope out there. And I don't want a parent to be one of those at all.
[01:09:43] Michelle: Well, thank you so much for thinking of us and just I read Our Preemie Adventure, so charming, so heartwarming, so relatable. And just as I was reading it, I thought, wow, he really gets it. Just what you said, I see you and the same thing that you're doing with your Instagram. Like, I see you, I feel you. I've thought those same thoughts. There's nothing more powerful than somebody that's actually been through it. And now they can bring their experience, their expertise, and their humor to a situation that wasn't the best, but they made the best of it. And that is certainly what you've done. And I know that today you have made our listeners laugh. You've definitely made me laugh all the way through and I appreciate that so much. And I think I told you that in the last few minutes of our talk today, I do a thing called the five-minute snippet. And this is just a side for our audience to see, kind of the off-duty side of Adam Wood. And so I ask you some questions that are kind of thought-provoking, kind of fun. So are you ready for the five-minute snippet?
[01:11:16] Adam: I am. Game. Shoot me. Shoot, not shoot me!
[01:11:21] Michelle: Right. There you go. Okay, so let me bring up my timer and we will just go. Okay, if you could be any NICU professional for one day, which one would you be?
[01:11:43] Adam: Probably the nurses. Because then I get a chance to tell everybody off, how I really feel because it's only for that one day and I know how much they keep inside. So I would just go full nuclear and be like, F you FU you're cool. I'm out. Peace. And that would be it.
[01:12:01] Michelle: Peace out,  I love it. What do you do when you want to get out of your own head?
[01:12:09] Adam: A lot of times it's going to work out. That's always been a thing for me with the military. It's kind of ingrained. So I get to escape a little bit or creating something. I'm always doing different things. So actually I've gotten into building my own Halloween props because I'm big into Halloween and my son now has gotten into it. So I build projects and do different things and look at How-To videos and it just allows me to escape for a little bit and at the same time create something, which I think is fun.
[01:12:43] Michelle: How fun? And you're going to be that house on the block that everyone oh, it is. You can have to send me a picture in all its glory. Wow.
[01:12:54] Adam: Certainly.
[01:12:55] Michelle: What product or brand do you buy because you feel it's trustworthy?
[01:13:03] Adam: That's a good question.
[01:13:04] Michelle: You always gravitate towards.
[01:13:09] Adam: I don't know if it's a particular product, but I know it's going to sound weird coming from a guy, but Etsy. I'm actually on Etsy a lot, and it's because you can find very unique things that are usually made handcrafted by somebody who put their heart and soul into it. And it always makes the best gifts because especially with having a wife, you have to find stuff for her. You don't share the same Amazon cart so I'm able to buy a T-shirt or a painting or whatever it might be. That is one of a kind, and I think it helps somebody else out too. And I think that's kind of where I go to like Etsy. I know a lot of guys don't do that, but if you're not on there, dude, there's a lot of good stuff on Etsy. You could find anything on there. It doesn't matter what it is. It's not just curly stuff and everything. It's literally anything on Etsy.
[01:13:58] Michelle: Do it.
[01:13:59] Adam: That is great.
[01:14:00] Michelle: Yeah, I echo that. One of my love languages is gift giving, and so I like to really personalize the gift and so I do go to Etsy a lot for that. What activity do you do that just makes you lose track of time?
[01:14:21] Adam: Cleaning. My wife, I'm an avid cleaner and I actually got two vacuums for Christmas as Christmas presents. I'm kind of like Danny Tanner from Full House of Dads. My dad ingrained that into me, was like very Warden-like growing up. And then the military just added on to that. So there are times I'll literally get stressed out and I'll spend two to 3 hours deep cleaning the house and it comes in smelling like a commercial.
[01:14:48] Michelle: Wow.
[01:14:49] Adam: I know my wife doesn't mind about that, so that's probably something I do.
[01:14:53] Michelle: That's awesome. Let's see. What do you consider the most important piece of furniture in a house?
[01:15:03] Adam: I would say the couch. And it's got to be not one of those like, I got it at IKEA or it's $5,000, but it's uncomfortable. Like a nice comfortable, feels like you're wearing sweatpants kind of couch, because you spend a lot of your time relaxing or maybe you're reading or you're watching a TV program with your family. And it also has all of your life ingrained into it, too, because you have your kids' crayons and all the things stuck inside of it. So it's like proof of your life and how you are as a family.
[01:15:41] Michelle: That's great. Wow. I love that. What is something weird that you do before bedtime? Any weird habits?
[01:15:53] Adam: I don't know. All right. Probably cleaning my ears. I know you're not supposed to do certain things, but I am meticulous, and it's like a tick with keeping my ears clean. I'll even look at other people. I know they say, don't put the QTIP in there, but I still do it, and I actually will look at other people's ears and judge them. If they have dirty ears, I can't unsee it. So I'll listen to the entire conversation, like, looking into their ears and not paying attention to them.
[01:16:24] Michelle: God, I love that. That is so awesome. Wow. All right, well, we got 2 seconds, so not enough.
[01:16:32] Adam: Go ahead, shoot.
[01:16:34] Michelle: You've been so awesome, Adam. I appreciate it. You have just brought so much value, so much humor, so much expertise, and we can all be better because of you. And so thank you so much for sharing you and Jenn and Brady's story. It's just amazing, and I just have gotten so much out of it, and I'm so glad I know you. So thank you so much.
[01:17:05] Adam: I appreciate that. And thank you for having me on, and thank you for your years of continued service to saving lives and families and helping them at different stages through the different things you've done. And I know that's made a huge impact. And on behalf of all parents and people out there, we love you. Nurses, especially, you have a special place in our hearts for everything that you do and the compassion and the things that you sacrifice sometimes your sanity, your sleep, your mental health, all to help somebody else out, and I can't say enough about that. And I know you've dedicated quite a bit of your time, including this podcast, to help other individuals and sharing stories, so thank you for that, and thank you for having me on and supporting me.
[01:17:53] Michelle: Thank you, Adam. I appreciate you so much, and you have a great rest of your day.
[01:17:58] Adam: You too, as well.
[01:18:00] Michelle: Okay, take care.